Can oud oil be consumed?

m.arif

Active Member
#1
As the title states. Can it be consumed? I've heard of people doing so, but is it safe? Why do people do it? Does it have health benefits in traditional medicine or modern ?

Rather than posting this question in the currently active thread "Let's talk Oud" , I think it's better if I post it separately, for easy reference.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#2
Most Chinese users of oud consume it in some form or other. Whether it be putting a drop of oil in a cup of hot water, or boiling up some kyara shavings and drinking the brew; some folks slice up thin strips of super grade agarwood and insert them into a..... cigarette.....

It's part of traditional Chinese medicine. (In addition to oud, I've seen a guy whip out an antelope horn, shave off some dust and drink it straight up.) I don't know how they assess the effectiveness or risk involved in such remedies, however the medicinality of oud is something widely recognized, in both the Chinese and Islamic healing traditions.
 

m.arif

Active Member
#3
Most Chinese users of oud consume it in some form or other. Whether it be putting a drop of oil in a cup of hot water, or boiling up some kyara shavings and drinking the brew; some folks slice up thin strips of super grade agarwood and insert them into a..... cigarette.....

It's part of traditional Chinese medicine. (In addition to oud, I've seen a guy whip out an antelope horn, shave off some dust and drink it straight up.) I don't know how they assess the effectiveness or risk involved in such remedies, however the medicinality of oud is something widely recognized, in both the Chinese and Islamic healing traditions.
Aha. I think I read about the cigarette thing on your website recently. It was in the description of one of your wood listings right? The things overly rich people do.

Personally, do you consume it? What effects have you felt?

Do you have references for further reading in regards to those topics in Chinese and Islamic healing traditions (this one especially for obvious reasons)?

Also, is there a grade system in terms of oud oil quality for consumption? Perhaps it could be widely used in alternative medicine, thus providing valueble use for the mass produced oils (provided that they are unadulterated and it meets the minimum standard of quality to get the health benefits).

I haven't seen many discussions about this topic.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#4
Yeah, that was the Papuan strips. I personally seldom consume agarwood oil, mostly when in the company of my Chinese colleagues who have a habit of doing it. Sometimes they'll be brewing kyara tea, or drinking a drop of oil in a cup of hot water, and it is very hard to say 'No' when presented with such a beverage....

The Kyara teas are definitely psychoactive. You space out, feel relaxed, inhibitions are somewhat lowered. So far as I can tell, it has anxiolytic as well as ultra mild psychotropic effects.

Regarding references, I am only familiar with the hadith of the woman who reported to the Prophet (saws) that her daughter was suffering from pleurisy, and he (saws) said "You should give her Indian aloeswood, for it contains the cure for seven diseases."

I'm not sure of a grading system, but from what I've witnessed of the Chinese school, nothing soaked can be consumed. So if you are to consume an oil (according to the Chinese tradition) it should be distilled without a soaking period. All the people that I know in the field keep saying "shi shi!" when I mention Bhutanese and Indian oils, and occasionally trick one of them into taking a swipe from a soaked oil I happen to be carrying with me. Shi shi means 'die die!' in Hokkien – i.e. you'll drop dead if you drink that stuff! :confused:

I highly doubt any 'mass produced' oils would ever qualify for consumption in Chinese medicine.... I wish someone like Kyarazen were here to enlighten us further with his knowledge of the local culture....
 

m.arif

Active Member
#5
You just made me even more curious to try the kyara water you mentioned. :rolleyes:

Right, I'll ask my teachers if they know more about this. Thanks for sharing the hadith.

I was thinking "shi shi" in mandarin, which is urine. But die die is much worse. Haha

From my minimal readings so far, chinese medicine seems to extensively use aloeswood. Even in the Malay /nusantara region, I've never heard of anyone consuming oud oil, or the wood for that matter. When you mention that, the mass produced oils seem lose more and more purpose to me..hmm. Are the low grades even good for any use?

Kyarazen's sharing here would definitely enrich the discussion. If you know him personally @ensar maybe you can drop an email to him ? :)
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#6
Well, all you need to do is hop on a bus and head over to Singapore! I don't know where in Malaysia you're located, but depending on your whereabouts you can even take an Uber here! @Oud_Learner & yours truly would be happy to host you for an oud majlis, inclusive of the mindbending water you're after!

As for the low grades, yeah there's always a use for them, otherwise they wouldn't keep making them. I just need to figure out what precisely that use is though.....

I've never communicated with Kyarazen directly, so I don't have his email address. @Oud_Learner & @Taha do though, and I think an invite from either of them would be a lot less startling :)
 
#7
Ah yes, we can have a mini Oud Fest! :)

Unfortunately Kyarazen (or WS, his initial) is really a busy man! He is currently in Hangzhou, China and not sure if he is free to join in the discussion. If he is back in Singapore and available, we can even catch him at his workshop for a Kodo session!
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#8
@m.arif

I know right, who couldn't use a little yummy anxiolytic tea with a side of very mild psychotropic relaxation!!!

@m.arif @Ensar

For me, as a western medicine trained physician, I actually love learning about this stuff. Now mind you our FDA would have a field day on this. However, even in the US, "herbal" remedies are much less regulated than medications are. But with that there are never going to be good references. Most medications will have good, randomized, blinded, placebo controlled trials. If you look at oud oils, Ensar, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe you could make the EXACT same oil twice in a row, even if you had the same wood. So it would be incredibly hard to put together any good or reproducible data for these types of things. Partly because there is no way to standardize the "medication", in this case the oil.

HOWEVER, I believe you and I briefly touched on this Ensar, the Chinese and other cultures have been doing this for millennia. There is a reason for it. They don't need a super duper randomized placebo controlled study. They are going to do it because their ancestors did it. And thats good enough for me. So bring me that cup of kyara tea please, and make it a double!
 

m.arif

Active Member
#9
Well, all you need to do is hop on a bus and head over to Singapore! I don't know where in Malaysia you're located, but depending on your whereabouts you can even take an Uber here! @Oud_Learner & yours truly would be happy to host you for an oud majlis, inclusive of the mindbending water you're after!

As for the low grades, yeah there's always a use for them, otherwise they wouldn't keep making them. I just need to figure out what precisely that use is though.....

I've never communicated with Kyarazen directly, so I don't have his email address. @Oud_Learner & @Taha do though, and I think an invite from either of them would be a lot less startling :)
@ensar I'm in Kuala Lumpur, where Taha is. But my hometown is actually in Johor Bahru, right next to Singapore. Finally there's something worth going through the traffic jams and triple currency value for. :)

Apparently they're being marketed for uses which many of you guys here would disapprove :p

@Oud_Learner @ensar Your warm welcomes are much appreciated. How can I turn down this offer? A kodo session with kyarazen would be a big bonus!

@bhanny Definitely! It'll be my first time consuming such a concoction though. I 'might' be a little nervous when the cup is right infront of me. Haha

Alternative medicine has been (re)gaining popularity nowadays it seems. But how can it not? There's a chinese bone setter in my hometown (Johor Bahru), where people queue up for their turn-number even before sunrise! Most people get treated in the open area of his porch, a plastic chair for his patient, another for him, unless a private,closed session is requested. Some people even go to him after having their cast removed at the hospital due to the limb feeling "off" or not properly put in. The guy'll just dislocate it again and re-set it better than before. Sounds crazy but he's the real deal. Been a family business since over 20 years ago I think. But analyze it with modern medicine's benchmarks and rules, he definitely won't get an orthopedist license I think !

@ensar In case you break any bones or dislocate any joints you might want to consider this chinese guy. But he doesn't have anaesthesia though. :cool:
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#10
@m.arif

Very cool and so true. I think the thing that has really hurt these true "alternative" healers has been these internet wonder cures. Unfortunately behind a computer anyone can say anything. I've seen people come in with diseases that had they sought true medical care earlier would likely have been curable, but instead had consulted Dr Google which had found some herb or vitamin that claimed to be effective against that particular disease. Its a painful realization for the patient and family after they realize its likely too late.

The only reason I put "alternative" in quotes is that is how our western culture sees them. I believe a true practitioner of their art is every bit as much of a healer as I, formal education or not.
 

m.arif

Active Member
#11
@bhanny very true. People who seek quick money seem to be experts in marketing and pressing the right buttons of the diseased clients! Taking advantage of a sick person..just wow.

Believe it or not some doctors in Malaysia even recommend the traditional bone setters to some patients.

Before formal medicine education emerged, healers of different types were already around. You just need to sift out the frauds from the real, pretty much like what we're facing nowadays anyway.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#12
For me, as a western medicine trained physician, I actually love learning about this stuff. Now mind you our FDA would have a field day on this. However, even in the US, "herbal" remedies are much less regulated than medications are. But with that there are never going to be good references. Most medications will have good, randomized, blinded, placebo controlled trials. If you look at oud oils, Ensar, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe you could make the EXACT same oil twice in a row, even if you had the same wood. So it would be incredibly hard to put together any good or reproducible data for these types of things. Partly because there is no way to standardize the "medication", in this case the oil.

HOWEVER, I believe you and I briefly touched on this Ensar, the Chinese and other cultures have been doing this for millennia. There is a reason for it. They don't need a super duper randomized placebo controlled study. They are going to do it because their ancestors did it. And thats good enough for me. So bring me that cup of kyara tea please, and make it a double!
Another physician! Cool! I figured I was the only oud crazy doc around.
 
#16
@Ensar:
I am somewhat puzzled.... I read, in more than one description of your oils, that you occasionally consumed a drop on your tongue.
Such as the initial descritption of Purple Kinam had this passage where you said (citation):
"(...)you know, the one you swipe on your tongue when no one’s looking. It turns your head into a cool cinema of indescribably fragrant pictures — vistas you’ll have to taste for yourself to get where I’m coming from." (end of citation)

So you are not doing regularly consuming your oud oils but only when one of your business contacts offers it to you?
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#17
So nice to see you here, Thomas S. Glad you've decided to join in on the discussion! :D

I was subjected to intense lobbying by the rest of the oud selling world to remove such references to consumption of agarwood oil, due to the legal repercussions entailed in the event of marketing these things as healing agents without the necessary documentation.

I thought it wise to limit the discussion to the effects of oud on the psyche as an aromatherapeutic agent, and stop there :)
 
#18
Thank you Ensar!

I guess with respect to health one should be very careful which kind of oil one consumes, if at all. I´d rather abstain from oils derived from inoculated wood...
 

RobertOne

Well-Known Member
#19
I use a lot and I do mean a lot of so called brain boosting suppliments, nutraceticals and vitamins alongside nootropics.

It would be wonderful if certain Ouds also possessed similar qualities, but I suspect their pathways of action are quite different from the above, x-post from Ouddict at the bottom of this post.

After my little monsters are a-bed I am going to pay a visit to a tiny little vial of Purple Kinam and I may or may not swipe a little onto a teaspoon.

http://www.ouddict.com/threads/intellectual-discourse.72/



My money is on the Eudesmol fractions of Oud.

Below is an abstract of the study of just one of the compounds contained within.

alpha-eudesmol, a P/Q-type Ca(2+) channel blocker, inhibits neurogenic vasodilation and extravasation following electrical stimulation of trigeminal ganglion.

Asakura K1, Kanemasa T, Minagawa K, Kagawa K, Yagami T, Nakajima M, Ninomiya M.
Author information
Abstract

In this study, we investigated the effect of alpha-eudesmol, which potently inhibits the presynaptic omega-agatoxin IVA-sensitive (P/Q-type) Ca(2+) channel, on neurogenic inflammation following electrical stimulation of rat trigeminal ganglion. Treatment with alpha-eudesmol (0.1-1 mg/kg. i.v.) dose-dependently attenuated neurogenic vasodilation in facial skin monitored by a laser Doppler flowmetry. In addition, alpha-eudesmol (1 mg/kg. i.v.) significantly decreased dural plasma extravasation in analysis using Evans blue as a plasma marker. On the other hand, alpha-eudesmol (1 mg/kg, i.v.) did not affect mean arterial blood pressure in rats. The calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and substance P (SP) released from activated sensory nerves have recently been suggested to be associated with the neurogenic inflammation. In this study, we also showed that alpha-eudesmol (0.45-45 microM) concentration-dependently inhibits the depolarization-evoked CGRP and SP release from sensory nerve terminals in spinal cord slices. These results indicate that the anti-neurogenic inflammation action of alpha-eudesmol, which does not affect the cardiovascular system, may be due to its presynaptic inhibition of the neuropeptide release from perivascular trigeminal terminals. We also suggest that the omega-agatoxin IVA-sensitive Ca(2+) channel blocker, alpha-eudesmol, may become useful for the treatment of the neurogenic inflammation in the trigemino-vascular system such as migraine.
 

JK

New Member
#20
Well look at that...a subject that plays to my strengths!

Good to see some other physicians in here :) My education and practice - is in Chinese Medicine. LOTS that can be said about Agarwood and it's use in medicine.

For starters - there are well over 450 formulas that use Chen Xiang (Agarwood) as an ingredient.

As for "lack of research" - I was just interviewed the other day, and this was a topic of discussion. A few things to keep in mind...
When you hop on Google and search a medical topic - are there any medical journals that pop up in the search? In general - no, they do not. To get medical research, you usually need to search within a specific medical journal, and also - you usually need a subscription to do so. This is why much "research" isn't found the Internet.

Secondly - I am assuming most of us speak English here - but regardless. When you search on the Internet, most of us don't think about it, but there are "many Internets" out there. Search in Chinese or Japanese or Arabic - and you'll get results that don't pop up when you search in English. So keep in mind that a search will only get a sliver of what is available out there to access.

Thirdly - there are more than 120x more medical journals in China than there are here in the US. And that's just China. Factor in Korea, Japan, Vietnam, India, etc - and the amount of research going on makes the information we know and have access to as Westerners look a bit miniscule.

Following on that - research on herbs encompasses Agricultural, Medical, Flavor and Fragrance, and other smaller industries. The research isn't being done just under a medical context. Think of all the industries built on the back of herbs...Pharmaceutical, Nutraceutical, Flavor and Fragrance, Culinary (ever thought about what your food would taste like without the Spice Trade??), and an often overlooked gajillion dollar industry - the Incense Industry. Hundreds of billions of dollars built on top of something most of us never think twice about - HERBS. This little nugget of info is what I realized while in med school, and ultimately helped me see the larger picture - my medical education wasn't just about treating the patient in front of me. My education tapped into a whole lot more.

Take a moment to let that sink in...

OK - so, Agarwood as medicine.

Ensar mentioned the "anxiolytic" and psychoactive properties, particularly of Kyara. In general, we say Chen Xiang Moves Qi ("Where there is no flow, there is pain - where there is pain, there is no flow"). This Qi Moving function is why it helps to reduce pain. We say it also Directs Rebellious Stomach Qi Downwards - a reference to the "Qi Rectifying" action on the directionality / mechanism of Qi Flow within the body - specifically as it relates to the Downward moving direction of the Stomach (the Spleen, conversely, has an Upward moving direction).

Lastly, we say it Benefits the Kidneys in Grasping the Qi - this statement gets a paragraph of its own. Chen Xiang Moves Qi in the Lower Abdomen (Kidneys and Large Intestine) - and benefits the Grasping function of the Kidneys. The Lungs are responsible for the Exhale. In Chinese Medicine, it is the Kidneys that Inhale. This is why Chen Xiang is used in a lot of Asthma formulations - and also why many who use the material will notice that it will Deepen their Breathing. Sandalwood, on the other hand, acts in the Upper Body - Circulating Qi in the Lungs, Stomach and Spleen. And now you understand why Sandalwood and Agarwood form the backbone of the incense industry, and their heavy use within meditation traditions that are centered on - Breathing. They both Open and Connect the Upper and Lower, Deepen the Breath, and Facilitate the Free Flow of Qi. Go burn some incense and tell me you don't notice this affect your breathing - making the breath come easier, and deeper - now that you know this ;)

Antelope horn, btw - depending on the species was most likely Ling Yang Jiao. We say it Clears Liver Heat and Internal Liver Wind, Subdues Liver Yang Rising - as well as Improves the Vision (where there is Liver Wind and/or Liver Heat involvement). It also Clears Blood Level Fire Toxicity. The meaning of these statements doesn't quite translate into English or Western Medical Language so well - but suffice it to say, it is a very effective medicinal that I've seen first hand work wonders.

I'm well connected in the CM Pharmaceutical industry, and speak frequently with many in influential roles in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan, as well as the leading Westerners in the industry, many of whom are personal friends. In fact - I supply material to some of them for their research.

Those familiar with my Thai Pa Pa Kea and Thai Snga Makham oils - I got quite a bit of flack for my "claims" about these two oils from the regular rabble-rousers. They gave me hard time because I had mentioned that these two oils were distilled by the personal distiller for the King of Thailand (God now rest his Soul). My connection to this distiller - was through Chinese Medicine. This guy extracts a wide variety of materials for the Royal Family - initially for their own benefit, but they have put him to work to supply their family-owned hospitals in Thailand. If anyone ever wants Pharmaceutical Oud Oil - or some of the Chinese Medical Oud Oil-Based formulations that they now use in their hospitals - I can hook folks up. They've asked on several occasions for me to bring the products to the West, given my education and understanding of the materials. It's always the finances of getting that done that have held me back. Not an inexpensive venture, as I'm sure you can imagine, launching pharmaceuticals to half the world.

@RobertOne - a word about trying to figure out the "active ingredients" of Oud...

Trying to look at Oud in this manner is a bit reductionistic. Take for example - what is the active ingredient in a car? How about the active ingredients in a luxury car, vs a standard car? A car is more than the sum of its individual parts - and a luxury car even more so. And don't forget - a car still needs a driver. Is the person the actual active ingredient of a car? Or is the car? But can one exist without the other? I apologize if my writing out the analogy isn't quite as clear as it would be in a conversation - the point is - the way Chinese Medicine understands how something functions goes beyond individual chemical analysis.

With that being said - keep in mind that Oud Oil and Oud Wood are actually two different Herbs. The Oil doesn't contain any of the water-soluble components. And it is distilled, rather than decocted (like the wood would be).

Medically speaking - oil-rich wood is valued over resin-rich wood when decocting. For Tincturing (in which both alcohol and oil-soluble components would be extracted) - resin-rich wood is preferred.

In the pharmaceutical industry, both the oil and water soluble components are captured and used in "patent" formulations. "Patent" in Chinese Medicine simply means "prepared" - so taking a capsule or tea pill with Chen Xiang in it will contain a special method of extraction containing a complete extraction of the material, as opposed to an Oud Oil, which is more like a refined product containing only the Oil-soluble components.

For smoking - the wood has a modifying effect on the Tobacco, and decreases the toxic burden on the body - as well as its Breath Deepening action (all smokers have trouble taking deep breaths), as well as the appreciation of the flavor, itself.

Back to the Anxiolytic properties - I suggest using Xiao Yao San. A heck of a lot cheaper than Kyara! XYS is jokingly referred to as "CM Xanax". It's a very inexpensive and effective formula for Moving Liver Qi and Tonifying the Spleen (the Spleen has an important role in Circulating Qi within the body). Functionally - it'll help a person to relax and chill out a bit. Great for high stress individuals (and menstruating women). Helps attain more restful sleep, as well. I can drop ship to anyone wanting some.

I'm sure I'll think of more to say...but that was a start!