Face to Face with ‘Arabian’ Oud: Part 2
- Thread starter Ensar Oud
- Start date
I would like to discuss couple of points Ensar because it seems on the face of it to defy logic. First assertion that those companies do not have the cash to pursue artisnal experimentation. If any one has spare cash to spend on an R&D department it would be those big houses and this goes to heart of what they are doing so I am pretty sure (although I have no empirical data to back this up) that they are spending tons of monies on various iteration of Oud distillations. Secondly, you've mentioned that producing small yield artisnal batches is not "in their field of experience". How could that be when we know that the Ajamal brothers and the Quraishi started like you with small productions for years before their business have taken off so they also must know a thing or two about good quality Oud production or at least used to. I grant you that their Business model probably have changed over the years and now it's more about volume. The question in my mind that remains unanswered is high volume production and good quality Oud are not compatible with each other? Can you still maintain strict procedure and guideline and maintain high quality and high volume output of pure Oud?
I hope you wouldn't mind my line of questioning for I only seek knowledge
I hope you wouldn't mind my line of questioning for I only seek knowledge
This is precisely the problem we encounter, where people use 'logic' in order to attain factual information, without the 'empirical data' to back the thought process. They then end up with conclusions and fixed ideas that couldn't be further removed from reality. If you scroll one page back, you will see from my back-and-forth with Ali Hasan and Oudramatic that it is precisely via this reasoning on the basis of what is empirically possible that one ends up making postulations which in fact disseminate falsehood and wrong information.
Example: My distiller is Thai. X vendor also knows distillers in Thailand. Hence it is possible that he knows my distiller. And that his oils are of the same calibre as mine. Since my distiller has been producing 700 tolas at a time before he met me, those 700 tolas must have gone somewhere before I came around. It follows that X might have them. Therefore, he likely has the same quality as I do. The purity of his product is therefore beyond dispute, and the quality is 'logically' obvious.
This is something that happens in the mind, the thought process outlined above. It has no basis in reality. X might know nothing about oud to begin with. He might be a chemist specializing in DOP production (empirical possibilities!) or a crook, or a cook, or a million other things in conjunction with millions of other possibilities!
Your reasoning, in your question above, goes something like this: Ajmal and ASAQ are large corporations. Hence they have lots of money. Therefore expensive distillations present no financial issue for them. Since they are old companies, they must know something about the quality of oud that was available in the past, which is no longer available now. So they must, given their large supplies of disposable funds and past experience, conduct experiments where the finest quality raw materials are employed. It is so 'logically' sound, that in fact it is more obvious that they are the ones conducting such experiments than I am, whom you have visual proof of having conducted them, and tangible oils in your collection to prove it.
In classical philosophy, logicizing in this fashion is called Sophism. It is a source of misinformation and untruth rather than true knowledge and beneficial information.
My experience working with some of the same distillers the 'big houses' employ tells me the opposite of what you believe about them. That they only care about buying at the lowest possible cost. That they don't ask how the oil was obtained, from what type of tree, of what age or inoculation method or degree of infection, or any other scientific data. Rather, they need a specific smell to be present in the oil and they need that oil to cost no more than a certain figure.
If the 'big houses' cared about the quality of raw materials that go into their oils, I wouldn't be pulling teeth trying to get their distiller to work to my standards. Nor would he to this day still suspect I am taking him for a ride with my unheard-of requests and countless specifications about the raw materials. Lastly, if the 'big houses' were conducting such distillations as I am, they would have oils to show for themselves, tangies to sniff and swipe your friends with. Their oils, the Khususi and the Mususi, wouldn't smell the same in every outlet out of hundreds over the course of months and years.
There are no oils. Just fixed ideas about fictitious oils that exist, somewhere, in the gray space of 'empirical possibility'. Sure, the clothes look great. The tailors are geniuses. Red alligator-skin suitcases, leather wrap, fine crystal flasks and bottles, fancy boxes. But the bottles are empty. And the king is naked.
Example: My distiller is Thai. X vendor also knows distillers in Thailand. Hence it is possible that he knows my distiller. And that his oils are of the same calibre as mine. Since my distiller has been producing 700 tolas at a time before he met me, those 700 tolas must have gone somewhere before I came around. It follows that X might have them. Therefore, he likely has the same quality as I do. The purity of his product is therefore beyond dispute, and the quality is 'logically' obvious.
This is something that happens in the mind, the thought process outlined above. It has no basis in reality. X might know nothing about oud to begin with. He might be a chemist specializing in DOP production (empirical possibilities!) or a crook, or a cook, or a million other things in conjunction with millions of other possibilities!
Your reasoning, in your question above, goes something like this: Ajmal and ASAQ are large corporations. Hence they have lots of money. Therefore expensive distillations present no financial issue for them. Since they are old companies, they must know something about the quality of oud that was available in the past, which is no longer available now. So they must, given their large supplies of disposable funds and past experience, conduct experiments where the finest quality raw materials are employed. It is so 'logically' sound, that in fact it is more obvious that they are the ones conducting such experiments than I am, whom you have visual proof of having conducted them, and tangible oils in your collection to prove it.
In classical philosophy, logicizing in this fashion is called Sophism. It is a source of misinformation and untruth rather than true knowledge and beneficial information.
My experience working with some of the same distillers the 'big houses' employ tells me the opposite of what you believe about them. That they only care about buying at the lowest possible cost. That they don't ask how the oil was obtained, from what type of tree, of what age or inoculation method or degree of infection, or any other scientific data. Rather, they need a specific smell to be present in the oil and they need that oil to cost no more than a certain figure.
If the 'big houses' cared about the quality of raw materials that go into their oils, I wouldn't be pulling teeth trying to get their distiller to work to my standards. Nor would he to this day still suspect I am taking him for a ride with my unheard-of requests and countless specifications about the raw materials. Lastly, if the 'big houses' were conducting such distillations as I am, they would have oils to show for themselves, tangies to sniff and swipe your friends with. Their oils, the Khususi and the Mususi, wouldn't smell the same in every outlet out of hundreds over the course of months and years.
There are no oils. Just fixed ideas about fictitious oils that exist, somewhere, in the gray space of 'empirical possibility'. Sure, the clothes look great. The tailors are geniuses. Red alligator-skin suitcases, leather wrap, fine crystal flasks and bottles, fancy boxes. But the bottles are empty. And the king is naked.
Ali Bhai, I was not referring to your argument per se, just the way the human intellect deals with mystery, or lack of facts; in that it connects the dots on its own, being unable to handle mystery.
I am now in Thailand. It is almost noon time, and I've just had a rude awakening by my distiller, who came banging on my door to make sure I got up. I need a bucket of cold water on my head, and off we go.
To clarify this one last time: The 700 tolas my distiller sold to Ajmal had nothing to do with the oils I sell. This is a generic quality of cultivated Thai oil which you find everywhere you look. I am afraid that if I cite actual examples from other vendors I will be flogged, so here we go again: you'll have to connect the dots yourself.
I am now in Thailand. It is almost noon time, and I've just had a rude awakening by my distiller, who came banging on my door to make sure I got up. I need a bucket of cold water on my head, and off we go.
To clarify this one last time: The 700 tolas my distiller sold to Ajmal had nothing to do with the oils I sell. This is a generic quality of cultivated Thai oil which you find everywhere you look. I am afraid that if I cite actual examples from other vendors I will be flogged, so here we go again: you'll have to connect the dots yourself.
@masstika: In the perfume industry, there are two types of vendors: there are vendors of perfumes – be they colognes, eau de toilettes, solid perfumes, botanical perfumes, natural perfumes, 'mukhallats' – and there are vendors of perfumery ingredients – essential oils, concretes, absolutes, floral waters, CO2 extracts, etc. The first never claim to offer the wares of the second group, and seldom does the second group attempt to purvey the branded merchandise of the first.
The first group offers a box, a container, and a fashion statement. The second group offers an artisanal, crafted, natural substance which may or may not be employed in the production of the wares of the first group. When looking for pure oud oil, you are as likely to find it on offer with brands or 'big houses' like Ajmal and ASAQ as you are to find pure deer musk on offer with Dior, Frederic Malle, Serge Lutens, or even Mandy Aftel.
You have the 'oudh', or the 'aoud', of the perfume houses which is a branded, generic Arabian (or Middle Eastern) fashion statement that is slowly gaining popularity in the West – and you have the artisanal oud oil, or pure agarwood essential oil of Ensar Oud, which is the natural raw material to which this scent category owes its original archetype.
Ajmal, ASAQ, Rasasi, Arabian Oud, Al Haramain, Oudh Al Anfar, King of Gaharu et al do not advertise organic, authentic, natural agarwood essential oil. Rather, they advertise the fashion statement of 'Arabic oudh', which is as general a scent category as it can get – not a scientifically defined natural raw material.
A good simile for how much oud oil is present in a bottle you receive from any of the 'big houses' is afforded by the other 98% of the perfume industry and its big houses.
Just as realistically as you can expect to find proper deer musk in: Frederic Malle's Musc Ravageur, Mona Di Orio's Les Nombres d'Ore Musc, Muschio Nobile's 1942, Keiko Mecheri's Musc, Creed's Cyprus Musc, Mazzolari's Musk, Micallef's Royal Muska, Montale's Aoud Musk or White Musk or Musk to Musk; Nasomatto's Silver Musk, Serge Lutens' Clair de Musc, Coty's Wild Musk, Dior's Homme Intense... and as much sandalwood as you might find in: Creed's Original Santal, Le Labo's Santal 33, Bois' Sandalo, or Serge Lutens' Santal de Mysore – that's how much agarwood essential oil you can realistically expect to find in any of the 'oudhs' or 'ouds' or 'aouds' from any of the Arabian or other 'houses', big or small.
For Ensar Oud, agarwood oil is not only a very specific type of essential oil which is extracted from a certain species of tree possessing a necessary degree of resination triggered by certain traumas – it is a painstakingly defined grade of that essential oil.
For John Doe, 'oud' could be any ratio of that oil in combination with any other oil, be it of natural or synthetic origin. For yet a third, it might be any combination of dioctyl phthalate (DOP) in conjunction with other chemicals. And for the 'big houses', it is a scent category.
Just as musk is for the 'big houses' of French perfumery, so is 'oud' for the big Arabian houses – a type of smell – regardless of what substance is used to give off or emit that smell. Nowhere do they advertise that they are selling 'agarwood essential oil'. Rather, just as Serge Lutens sells Muscs Koublai Khan, containing zero deer musk, so can – and does – Rasasi sell Attar Al Oudh, containing zero agarwood oil.
The 'big houses' can never offer artisanal oud oil on a large scale for the same reason Serge Lutens cannot offer wild-harvested deer musk on a large scale, and the same reason that instead of pure santalum album from the state of Mysore, Creed offers Santal Imperial, Original Santal, Bois de Santal, etc.
The first group offers a box, a container, and a fashion statement. The second group offers an artisanal, crafted, natural substance which may or may not be employed in the production of the wares of the first group. When looking for pure oud oil, you are as likely to find it on offer with brands or 'big houses' like Ajmal and ASAQ as you are to find pure deer musk on offer with Dior, Frederic Malle, Serge Lutens, or even Mandy Aftel.
You have the 'oudh', or the 'aoud', of the perfume houses which is a branded, generic Arabian (or Middle Eastern) fashion statement that is slowly gaining popularity in the West – and you have the artisanal oud oil, or pure agarwood essential oil of Ensar Oud, which is the natural raw material to which this scent category owes its original archetype.
Ajmal, ASAQ, Rasasi, Arabian Oud, Al Haramain, Oudh Al Anfar, King of Gaharu et al do not advertise organic, authentic, natural agarwood essential oil. Rather, they advertise the fashion statement of 'Arabic oudh', which is as general a scent category as it can get – not a scientifically defined natural raw material.
A good simile for how much oud oil is present in a bottle you receive from any of the 'big houses' is afforded by the other 98% of the perfume industry and its big houses.
Just as realistically as you can expect to find proper deer musk in: Frederic Malle's Musc Ravageur, Mona Di Orio's Les Nombres d'Ore Musc, Muschio Nobile's 1942, Keiko Mecheri's Musc, Creed's Cyprus Musc, Mazzolari's Musk, Micallef's Royal Muska, Montale's Aoud Musk or White Musk or Musk to Musk; Nasomatto's Silver Musk, Serge Lutens' Clair de Musc, Coty's Wild Musk, Dior's Homme Intense... and as much sandalwood as you might find in: Creed's Original Santal, Le Labo's Santal 33, Bois' Sandalo, or Serge Lutens' Santal de Mysore – that's how much agarwood essential oil you can realistically expect to find in any of the 'oudhs' or 'ouds' or 'aouds' from any of the Arabian or other 'houses', big or small.
For Ensar Oud, agarwood oil is not only a very specific type of essential oil which is extracted from a certain species of tree possessing a necessary degree of resination triggered by certain traumas – it is a painstakingly defined grade of that essential oil.
For John Doe, 'oud' could be any ratio of that oil in combination with any other oil, be it of natural or synthetic origin. For yet a third, it might be any combination of dioctyl phthalate (DOP) in conjunction with other chemicals. And for the 'big houses', it is a scent category.
Just as musk is for the 'big houses' of French perfumery, so is 'oud' for the big Arabian houses – a type of smell – regardless of what substance is used to give off or emit that smell. Nowhere do they advertise that they are selling 'agarwood essential oil'. Rather, just as Serge Lutens sells Muscs Koublai Khan, containing zero deer musk, so can – and does – Rasasi sell Attar Al Oudh, containing zero agarwood oil.
The 'big houses' can never offer artisanal oud oil on a large scale for the same reason Serge Lutens cannot offer wild-harvested deer musk on a large scale, and the same reason that instead of pure santalum album from the state of Mysore, Creed offers Santal Imperial, Original Santal, Bois de Santal, etc.
Musk is a bad analogy. They cannot sell deer musk because it is to all extents and purposes a banned substance. Also, musk is a very murky scent as there are vegetal sources of musk scent such as ambrette seeds though anyone who has smelled real musk will know the difference. Many modern western perfumers will only create some aspect of a scent in their product or even something contrary to its name. This is not the same as saying you are selling oud oil. It is artistic license, albeit a marketing ploy in many instances.
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As far as I am aware, deer musk is not banned, but it's trade is restricted and regulated by CITES. I have read that certain high end French perfumers still import deer musk for use in their products and I know of one US based company that has a licence to import deer musk into the US (although they are not allowed to re-export).
Musk deers became a protected endangered species by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna (CITES) in 1979, rendering natural musk almost obsolete in perfumery (The erratic quantities used by a handful of perfumers come from either old stock ~musk only gains in complexity with storage and doesn't lose its aroma for centuries~ or illegal poaching). Therefore all musk used in perfumery today is synthetic apart from only a handful exceptions which are usually small artisanal perfumers (who are often not at liberty to be open about it due to ethical concerns from consumers).
Thanks for your response Thomas. The analogy of the musk not withstanding (Oud and musk roles are very different in the perfumery industry), I do agree that there is probably very little Oud in the so called Oud perfumes sold by the "Big Arabian Houses". It is true that the word Oud, oudh is used interchangeably and it does refer more to a type of scent. However, when we are talking about "Dehn Al Oud", which literally means the "fat" of Oud then I expect to find 100% pure Oud oil with no DOP or extenders and that is how it is advertised. I have not seen and I might be wrong any Dehn Al Oud that is Mukhalat or that contain no Oud as you've mentioned above.
The issue of whether that even the Dehn Al Oud is adulterated I have no factual proof of it such as a chemical test except here say. So while I do agree that the majority of what is on offer is perfumes I find it hard to believe that non of those houses offer any Pure Oud even at a medium or low quality.
Regarding sophism, I would disagree with Ensar Characterization of my early argument. Sophism emplies intentionally placing a subtle fallacy in an argument to make it appear logical. I would further say that what I have proposed earlier is no different than what some astronomers and mathematicians use when they postulate a proposal that can not be proved empirically or observed at the moment but many years later on turns out to be true and to confiem early hypothesis.
I guess , the jest of my discussion here is I don't see large production and high quality being exclusive of each other. There is no comparison between what Ensar Oud does and the aforementioned Big Arabian House. And thank you Thomas again for clarifying where Ensar Oud sees itself. I had subconsciously considered you guys as perfumers and not purveyors of raw materials. While I understand Oud to be a raw material that is somehow not the way it is presented on the web site. it is IMHO presented as a wholesome olfactory experience (as in a perfume). I know most buyers use the oud on it's own and very few mix it with other ingredients like they would other raw resources (either due to cost or preference).
Regarding Musk deers, not all of them are protected like the Kashmiri deer. Only signatory to the CITES enforce the ban but they are still hunted in Siberia (Russia is not a signatory to the treaty). I also heard that there are Musk deer farms in Saudi but I was not able to confirm that.
The issue of whether that even the Dehn Al Oud is adulterated I have no factual proof of it such as a chemical test except here say. So while I do agree that the majority of what is on offer is perfumes I find it hard to believe that non of those houses offer any Pure Oud even at a medium or low quality.
Regarding sophism, I would disagree with Ensar Characterization of my early argument. Sophism emplies intentionally placing a subtle fallacy in an argument to make it appear logical. I would further say that what I have proposed earlier is no different than what some astronomers and mathematicians use when they postulate a proposal that can not be proved empirically or observed at the moment but many years later on turns out to be true and to confiem early hypothesis.
I guess , the jest of my discussion here is I don't see large production and high quality being exclusive of each other. There is no comparison between what Ensar Oud does and the aforementioned Big Arabian House. And thank you Thomas again for clarifying where Ensar Oud sees itself. I had subconsciously considered you guys as perfumers and not purveyors of raw materials. While I understand Oud to be a raw material that is somehow not the way it is presented on the web site. it is IMHO presented as a wholesome olfactory experience (as in a perfume). I know most buyers use the oud on it's own and very few mix it with other ingredients like they would other raw resources (either due to cost or preference).
Regarding Musk deers, not all of them are protected like the Kashmiri deer. Only signatory to the CITES enforce the ban but they are still hunted in Siberia (Russia is not a signatory to the treaty). I also heard that there are Musk deer farms in Saudi but I was not able to confirm that.
I thought musk was a good analogy. If selling it is restricted or banned it makes the point even clearer, i.o.w how can the western perfumers sell a banned or restricted substance so freely and on such a scale? Most people have not smelled real musk, nor do many people even really know what 'musk' is, so most people don't know the difference. Similarly I've met many people who traveled to the middle east and showed me their $2 bottles of oud.
I think that's exactly Thomas' point He's saying that what is being sold as oud is just some aspect of the scent or even something contrary to its name, just like all the $2 ouds are. Most people think these qualify as oud, just like like most people think that all the French perfumers use musk.
masstika, I've seen all sorts of dehnal oudh items on ebay. The prices ranged from $20, $30, like this. Some of them even mentioned things like 'dehnal oudh attar'. Maybe the big perfumers use the term more appropriately (to mean pure), but many re-sellers sure don't seem to
I think that's exactly Thomas' point
He's saying that what is being sold as oud is just some aspect of the scent or even something contrary to its name, just like all the $2 ouds are. Most people think these qualify as oud, just like like most people think that all the French perfumers use musk.masstika, I've seen all sorts of dehnal oudh items on ebay. The prices ranged from $20, $30, like this. Some of them even mentioned things like 'dehnal oudh attar'. Maybe the big perfumers use the term more appropriately (to mean pure), but many re-sellers sure don't seem to
All musk has been synthetic in larger western houses since 1979. No one is searching for pure scent of musk pod in the west. Musc Ravageur has no musk even listed in the scent pyramid. It is about synthetic engineering art. Whether you like this art or don't is another issue. I generally don't if there is an option but Musc Ravageur is a powerful example of this art. I agree that Mysore Sandalwood is deceptive advertising. Arab houses do shroud the musk in more mystery. To compare the western art of perfumery to the art of distilling one note is ridiculous. I don't have the philosophical labels to call it sophistry, naivete or whatever but these are two separate entities, it just happens that the word oud is being bandied about by western perfumers excessively at the moment. Hopefully they will move on to tomato leaf or some other buzzword soon.