Face to Face with Ensar Oud

Kruger

Well-Known Member
#1
We should all be rejoicing that 'incense-grade' agarwood seems to be blooming on the market like never before. Wild-harvested sinking-grade, incense-grade, and all kinds of super-duper grades are not only freely available online, but you can even go to any shopping mall in the Far or Middle East to see it for yourself!

Yet, closer to home… on the ground… in the jungles, at the distilleries, the picture's not quite as rosy. We'd love to take any of the local Thai, Malaysian, Vietnamese, or Indonesian oud hunters out for dinner to the big city markets and show them around the oud courts.

Our daily routine in the Thai countryside is to wake up, skip breakfast, and start meeting with agarwood hunters and brokers. Day after day, we inspect batch after batch.

We don't deal with middlemen, so there's no value added to what we pay for oud wood. The same cannot be said of other vendors who, without exception, have to deal with second, third, or fourth parties. By the time the wood (or oil extracted from it) ends up on the market, the price has gone through several mark-ups along the way.

So, with costs at a minimum, let's see how we can reproduce the likes of Chinese Exclusive or Kalbar 3000 today. Chinese Exclusive was distilled eight years ago. Kalbar 3000, five years ago. If we wanted to simulate these distillations today, we'd be faced with two obstacles: finding the same quality wood, and having enough cash to pay for the wood.

What do you think of the wood in the pictures below?

Fakewood01.JPG
Fakewood03.JPG
Fakewood04.JPG

Incredible, right? If these photos were sent to you, no one could blame you for thinking just that. But what these pictures show is that since 2004, 2005, and 2007, some things have changed.

Back then, we never found wood that was painted to appear more resinated. We never found 'stuffed' wood, meant to add weight to a batch.

FakeWood.jpg

Chips weren't glued together to appear more suitable for carving purposes. Before, when you'd break open a chunk of wood, you wouldn't find metal dust implanted to give the wood that nice 'sinking' feeling. In short, wood was never manufactured to make you believe that you were getting a certain kind of quality – incense-grade, sinking-grade, or otherwise. Why now?

We've tried to report on what we see happening on the production front. But given all the shops filled with agarwood that we're finding so hard to come by, and every online oud oil vendor offering the next great distillation, a bit of consumer scepticism is understandable.

So, here are the facts:

One of the batches of raw oud wood we found was of a quality worth considering for an upcoming distillation. It wasn't incense-grade, but still excellent for making oil. Only 12 kilograms were available. Price: $12,000. Expected yield: 4-5 tolas. Supposing we got the four tolas, that would mean that the minimum cost of only the wood going into the distillation would have been $750 per 3 grams of oil.

We can cite many examples like this one (and others, where higher asking prices would seem too far-fetched to even mention here). We are yet to track down wood of the same grade as what went into our other Vintage LTD oils. But, based on what we're seeing, even once we find it, we'll most likely forfeit the opportunity to take it to the grinders. Why?

The retail price for Kalbar 3000 is currently $790 per 3 grams, making it the highest priced oil in our Vintage LTD Collection. And we continue to receive complaints about it being too expensive. Yet, how can we be expected to continue to produce oils of the same standard, when just the cost of the wood alone needed to conduct the distillation already exceeds the retail price of an oil that's 'over-priced'?

Our oud oils have always been produced according to a very simple formula: find the best wood and distill it in the very best way. Today, the formula hasn't changed. But the ingredients have, in both price and quality.

Before the terms 'sinking-grade' or 'incense-grade' were even coined, nobody else ever dared to grind wood of this quality into dust and distill it into oil. But no matter how daring, today for the first time we're forced to reconsider.
 
#3
Thomas, I have been doing some home work since I have read your post and with all due respect and without appearing to be argumentative but Everyone I have asked who has been involved in the Oud Industry (distillation and retail) for decades have never heard of Oud for distillation that is prized at $1000/Kilo. They all said that is Insane. Most said the most is $100 to $150/kilo. Now I do agree with you regarding the meteoric rise of the cost of the certain grades and types of Oud. Case in point is Oudline King Super chips were $14/gram in 2010 now it is $39/gram. However distillation grade Oud has not seen the same rise since it is not much sought after by the new Chinese demands for carving. The case for Khao Yai and why not many have gone for it could be explained by examining the circumstances when it was released right on the heels of another astronomically prized albeit wonderful oil such as Thai Incens which made a lot of us think is this is the new prizing guidelines??? A lot of us probably thought also for that cost you can have 3 wonderful and amazing oils from your other lines. So for a lot of people especially newbies dropping over $1500 on 3ml. takes deep pocket and a heart of steel. The other factor could be the fact that it was Thai oil and many felt like they have enough Thai oils in their collection and we're looking for geographical variation. I found you're oils that are prized in the neighborhood of $250 hits the sweet spot between quality, ease of wear and economy of expenditure.
 

Kruger

Well-Known Member
#4
Masstika, thank you! As I have said over and over again, 'insane' is what we get called every single time we tell the distillers what we intend to do with our wood. Now, you've heard it firsthand yourself. :)

For sure, no one has heard of oud for distillation priced at $1000/kg, nor will they... until they meet Ensar.

Instead of asking about wood for distillation, ask your contacts about wood for burning, i.e. authentic incense grade or super grade, or king double super grade, and see if they've heard of that kind going for $1,000/kg. To anybody in the oud industry (distillation and retail) it would most certainly sound absurd to distill oil from this kind of wood. To them, it is guaranteed loss.

When we're talking about wood at $100 to $150/kg, we're already at the higher end of the spectrum. In fact, I doubt that any online vendor uses wood that even reaches $150.

Apparently, our 'artificially priced' oils can be reproduced by every other distiller for a 5th of the price or less, because they're certain that we could not possibly be using wood for much more that $150/kg. They think that we use the same raw materials they use, and produce oils at the same cost they do, and in the same way.

The Chinese bead collectors are paying $12,000, $20,000+ for a bracelet that could cost as little as $20 to carve. Are those who sell the beads looked upon with equal skepticism?

I can get everybody on this forum an oud bracelet for $20, $50, or $100. But I'm sure you all know what the difference is between these and those going off to China.

The Chinese demand only certain grades for carving. We demand the same, or very close... to make oil. Neither they nor we care much about 'distillation' grade.

Many people have an ugly habit of gossiping about our prices and the reason we set these prices, without even knowing where we're coming from. You can read their remarks on Basenotes, where slandering Ensar Oud is common practice. However, I'm betting these are among the same people who told you that distilling oil from $1,000/kg wood is 'insane'.

To us, on the producing end, it's a lot clearer than people who see only 'bottle of oud' vs 'bottle of oud'. The difference, without exaggeration, is as clear on the production end of our oils as the difference between the manufacture of a Lamborghini and a Kia. Not knowing what goes into the production of our oils, many scoff and jeer and slander. But there you have it, you went to these very same people with as earnest a request as we go to our distillers in order to produce our oil – and you got laughed at!

Kyara de Kalbar, to cite just a recent example, was produced from $750/kg wood, with a yield of two to three grams of oil per kilogram of wood.

Looking at the 54 tola yield publicized on our website, Muhammad Taftazani makes the following remark on Basenotes:

'$1,000+ for 3 grams... that is sooo spooky... if the yield is that high the price should be better... meaning lesser...I am not mentioning anyone here... just so shocked...'

Taftazani does not ask, 'How many kilograms where used to get that yield?' Nor does he ask, 'What kind of wood went into the pots?' By default, he assumes it's the same $20/kg wood which distillers use across the board in Indonesia. Little does he know that $750/kg wood was transported to, and then custom distilled in Taiwan for the production of Kyara de Kalbar. So his 'professional' input is just about as professional as a Hyundai engineer going to a Lamborghini forum and scoffing at the Italian car manufacturers.

These realities might appear very ambiguous and fictitious from the end user's perspective. However, for us as a producer, they are hard realities which we live and grieve through on a daily basis.

For yet another perspective into the matter, you may watch Ensar's own reaction when inspecting the $12,000 wood....

[video=youtube;8wRHfbHQijM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wRHfbHQijM[/video]
 
#5
Thomas, thanks for your explication and Masstika for raising the question. what I myself am wondering is what of the dust from carving high grade wood. What fraction is it in price terms of the actual wood? Does Ensar oud no longer use it hence the higher prices?
 
#6
I have purchased Mr Taftazani's product and it is not your typical burnt rubber from Indonesia. It is as good as the Oriscents I have sniffed and priced comparably.

Nowhere on Basenotes does my friend use his own name yet you have called him out personally Thomas. He wanted me to let you know his response on BN (click here) and his challenge to Ensar to a distill off...maybe we can get the Cooking Channel to cover this.
 
#7
If our friend can offer his Oud for 20$ or lets say 10$ profit for him and 10$ shipping 40$ all together, with a high end smell,
why doesn't he offer us his oils?

I would order from him :)

AgarwoodIndonesia you can join the forum here without problem.
 

Kruger

Well-Known Member
#8
Thomas, thanks for your explication and Masstika for raising the question. What I myself am wondering is what of the dust from carving high grade wood. What fraction is it in price terms of the actual wood? Does Ensar Oud no longer use it hence the higher prices?
There are a few things we need to know about distilling oud oil from dust.

First, in order to distill a batch from carving dust you need about 20-40 kilograms to get anywhere between 5 to 15 tolas. As you can imagine, with people carving precious agarwood, the last thing that they're concerned about is how the dust will fare. They're so engrossed in chiselling the wood itself that even cutting their own hands is a matter of secondary importance.

Now, imagine strewing the floor of a wood broker's warehouse with carving dust. How many different pieces of wood, all from different trees and jungles, would have to get cleaned in order to gather 40 kg? How much cigarette ash and dirt from bare feet pacing about the ground is admixed with that dust? And how much dust (the stuff you dust off with a duster), which can kill a batch of oud oil? These are just considerations that occur to the mind of someone obsessed with purity, and for which reason it's not as simple as just taking a bag of dust from high grade wood from just anyone.

Secondly, as incense grade oud wood gets rarer and rarer, so does the dust that comes from it.

Thirdly and lastly, the prices of the oils which we distilled from incense grade dust have not risen from what they've always been; i.e. $550 per 3 gram bottle. E.g. if any oil were to see a price hike, it would have been Oud Mostafa. Because of the relatively lower cost of carving dust collected from high grade agarwood, Oud Mostafa did not undergo a price increase. Many other oils which we distilled from carving dust have always been and remain the same price, i.e. $550. Such oils include Oud Ebrahim, Oud Zachariyya, Bhutan Kinam, the newest batch of Oud Khidr (unreleased), the newest batch of Oud Mostafa (unreleased), and many others.

The pricing of oils that were distilled from proper oud wood, however, such as Kalbar 3000, Kyara de Kalbar, Borneo 50K, Borneo 5000, is directly proportionate to the current market value of the raw materials used to make these oils.

Since some of you are Muslim, let me explain the matter from a slightly different perspective. Being 'trade goods', oud oils are subject to zakat. One of the greatest concerns we face in this business is calculating the zakat due on our oils. We have gone to scholars versed in religion (such as Dr. Ashraf Muneeb and Shaykh Ahmad Jammal of Jordan) to seek their counsel on the correct calculation method of zakat on extinct substances for which there is no replacement value in the contemporary market.

Zakat, as some of you must know, is calculated based on the replacement cost of a merchant's wares. It is not calculated on how much he paid for them 30 years ago, nor is it calculated on the retail price at which he's currently selling those wares. Zakat is calculated on replacement cost. How much would he have to spend to produce the same oil this year? That is the amount zakat is calculated from.

So now, take Oud Royale No 1. The oil was distilled in 1982 from sinking-grade wood which is no longer available. For zakat purposes, it is impossible to calculate the zakat due on such an oil based on replacement cost, because the raw materials are effectively non-existent. So then, in order to pay zakat on Oud Royale No 1 – and any other irreplaceable sinking-grade or very high incense-grade vintage oud oils which we stock – we have to take the actual retail price at which we would sell the oil, and pay the zakat in full based on our own retail price! Why? Because in our books, these oils are effectively un-replaceable. And zakat cannot be calculated from a replacement cost because the raw materials are EXTINCT.

This is yet another insight into how we calculate the value of our oils, and how we raise the price on ourselves in what we pay for them to the One who gave them to us in the first place.
 
#9
This is getting ridiculous. Those who have a bone to pick with Ensar, or who can't get over his high prices, should go somewhere else, and be content buying the Ouds that they love and feel are a better deal. Those who appreciate Ensar's Ouds, don't mind paying his prices, and feel that he is honest, should be able to speak freely about his oils. End of story. The rest is all getting a bit adolescent..a distill off...please. Let's all remember why we love Oud oil, and get back to talking about this precious substance, and what it has to offer.

I appreciate your posts Thomas, and the time you have been taking to explain the financial nuances and realities that go into distilling your oils. I hope everyone is learning something from it.
 
F

floraopia

Guest
#10
That is EXACTLY what I am thinking Oudiferous... pretty sick of the Oriscent/Ensar Oud bashing to be honest. I have been watching this thread and the ones on Basenotes with disgust and don't like to wade into controversial matters, but this is just wrong on so many counts.

As for Mr Taftazani, I do not know him, nor have I been in contact with him, but as Rising said, please offer us Oud fans a comparable oil at a fraction of the cost and you will have many takers... I would buy several tolas from him at the prices he has implied! If Mr Taftazani is the one and the same as Agarwood Indonesia, then I can only see one oil at $450 for 2.5ml which is the equivalent of $540 for 3ml - not 3g mind you - putting the Oud at Oriscent pricing levels if not quality. The description and marketing come straight out of the ensaroud website with words like 'Incense Grade' and the company tagline... the Oud Oil Artist. But then the Basenotes post clearly stated that using incense-grade wood was a stupid business practice so I am really confused. By all means market your wares and the best of luck to you, but please, play fair.

As for the challenge on Basenotes, Mr Taftazani, I have one of my own... please produce the likes of Borneo 3000 or Kyara de Kalbar or Kalbar 3000 for around $100 per 3g for me and I PROMISE that I will buy at least 10 tolas from you before the end of this year - of course, I will want a sample to confirm the quality of any oud oil first. You can send me a PM on Basenotes as soon as you are ready.
 
#11
Woof...let's all take a step back and take a deep breath. I don't think we should be admonishing others here or censoring for this is the beauty of exchanging information and points of views. As much as it hurts me as others to see people unfairly targeting one vendor or another, I worry not about it. EnsarOud among others must has a thick skin by now and can handle themselves well in face of adversary. And each one of them has their products that speak volumes, more than any review or fan club can advocate. I for one will give Agarwoodindeonasia a try at their sample because that is the only way one can tell hype from real.

Back to the Oud we love, I thank you Thomas for taking the time out to explain in details, some never occurred to me such as the Zakat issue which I like to touch upon later but first can you clarify for me why you need more materials (Oud Shavings and dust)when distilling from dust, you mentioned 20 to 40 kilos vs. 12 kilos of chips; don't you put the chips in the grinder and everything ends up in shavings and dust or am I not understanding this equation correctly? Secondly when you guys say that this is Incense grade chips what grade is that A, AA, BC ...etc? because at $1000/kilo I would think that is low grade Incense but I might be wrong. Another point I keep coming to over and over again and I never get an answer which is if the oil does not come from the resin then what is the significance of distilling from incense grade, resin laden chips. Regarding the Zakat issue and I am not a scholar on this issue by no mean :) I would have thought that you pay Zakat on retail prize regardless because you might have paid less for replacement, if that material is available either because you're buying wholesale or through old contacts that gives you a reduction in cost. Zakat is paid on both Capital and profit.

Finally, Thanks for the video, I watched with sadness Ensar's facial expression. I could almost feel the bitterness in the tone of his voice on the missed opportunity but maybe this will be the catalyst to take Ensar Oud artisan ship to the next level. Peace.
 
#13
I apologize for being so rude to Ensar and Thomas on their site. I would not like people to be rude to me on my own site but the www is the New Wild West. For the sake of transparency however I feel you people should be aware of the facts of ownership.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#14
The site is far from mine, or Thomas', or even Luigi's. I have encouraged custies and techie friends alike to start a forum like this since way back, due to the obvious need for it and benefit to oud lovers. Particularly at the time when the moderators at the other forum were being just a tad uncivil.

Oudiferous is one of the people I encouraged to start a site like this, and I even offered to help him with it by drafting a glossary of technical terms. Being a member here, he can attest to this. Other people include oudheads from Jordan and elsewhere, whose identities I cannot disclose. I don't have the time, the wish or the internet savviness to maintain or regulate a forum.

The fact that you can get away with calling me names here should go a long way to show the unbiasedness of the folks who run Gaharu; and that it is an open forum for all oud lovers far and wide to participate in, whether they're fond of me as you are or otherwise.

As you can see from his degree of intervention, Luigi has seldom displayed a heavy hand, and the only time he deleted a thread, a vote was cast and it was reinstated by popular demand.
 

Kruger

Well-Known Member
#15
Boy, oh, boy. If my personal details were posted like this I wouldn’t know which wall to break down first. Thomas gets told off for calling someone (who everybody already knows) by name, and then the guy has the audacity to post this. You might not have to look very hard to find out certain things, but where I’m from people don’t even hand out their phone numbers without good reason.

Whoever’s in charge of this forum has done many of us a favour because I think at one stage about half of the basenotes members were banned and the thread basically died as a result. But this time moderation has a place, and I urge Luigi to delete or at least edit this post to keep confidential info confidential.

If I was Ensar, I’d really be fuming right now. No pun intended.
 
#16
As far as i understood Mr. Taftazani he claimed that it is possible with right material and distillation technique etc to produce an acceptable Oil for about 20$ (at Basenotes he claimes that he tried several times to register here).
What would you say is the cheapest possible price for an acceptable oil?

Will we see an Ensar Oud for 100$ or 150$?
 
#17
The site is far from mine, or Thomas', or even Luigi's. I have encouraged custies and techie friends alike to start a forum like this since way back, due to the obvious need for it and benefit to oud lovers. Particularly at the time when the moderators at the other forum were being just a tad uncivil.

Oudiferous is one of the people I encouraged to start a site like this, and I even offered to help him with it by drafting a glossary of technical terms. Being a member here, he can attest to this. Other people include oudheads from Jordan and elsewhere, whose identities I cannot disclose. I don't have the time, the wish or the internet savviness to maintain or regulate a forum.

The fact that you can get away with calling me names here should go a long way to show the unbiasedness of the folks who run Gaharu; and that it is an open forum for all oud lovers far and wide to participate in, whether they're fond of me as you are or otherwise.

As you can see from his degree of intervention, Luigi has seldom displayed a heavy hand, and the only time he deleted a thread, a vote was cast and it was reinstated by popular demand.
I can confirm the above. In fact, I recall the time when the Basenotes thread was killed by Stuigi, and how this site popped up afterwards. Ensar and I were both trying to find out who created it and was running it, but we had no idea. In any case, this level of politics around a fragrance is deeply unattractive, and if it continues, I will have to continue my passion for this oil more privately.
 
#18
So you think it is fine for Ensar to write horrible personal things about Alan Mahaffey even stating the man was bankrupt which is far more personal than checking the whois on any website ownership and I am a creeptsta? Fine, I have already asked Luigi to release from the bondage of this site. I can't figure out how to quit on the settings panel so if there is a way for a member to quit please tell me now.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#19
Alan Mahaffey had my picture on his homepage with the caption “Interview with Alan Mahaffey, CEO of Agarwood Consulting” right underneath – putting words in my mouth which I never uttered, using the set-up to gain recognition among my customers and sell them oils that are spin-offs of mine, such as the 'Khao Yai Elixir'.

If he weren't using my name to his advantage in this way, all the while stabbing me in the back, perhaps it wouldn't even occur to me to mention him, let alone go into the fine details of the story.

All I meant to say is this:

The recommendation that he gave himself on my behalf is fictitious. I did not recommend his oils. I met with him because he claimed to have sinking grade wood, which it turned out he did not have. He did the same thing to one of my distillers, and the latter to this day goes into hysterics every time he recalls the incident.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#20
As far as I understood Mr. Taftazani he claimed that it is possible with right material and distillation technique etc to produce an acceptable Oil for about 20$ What would you say is the cheapest possible price for an acceptable oil? Will we see an Ensar Oud for 100$ or 150$?
This is the greatest challenge facing someone buying oud oil: discriminating between the different vendors and the oils they offer.

The first thing to know is that there are VAST gaps of difference in quality between the oils on offer from different producers. Yes, even the ones reputed to sell 'pure, top shelf' oud oils. There are shelves... and there are shelves.

To me, to label an oil 'top shelf' on the basis of its being pure is tantamount to calling a Kia a high quality car because it runs on four wheels, and comparing it to the Porsches and Bentleys. Unfortunately, with oud it is not as clear what the precise differences are between the wares of different 'houses'. All you have in front of you is an image of a bottle with some writing on the side. The vendor sounds 'friendly'. A 'fine young man'. But his oil is fast asleep, more often than not, even if it were 'pure'. When compared to the Rolls, the Kia remains, at best, a Kia.

At Ensar Oud, we specialize in creating custom distilled oud oils – with NO intention of selling them later. And if we could make them even more expensive, and even higher quality, we would. The truth of the matter is that none of our oud oils are 'for sale' in the vulgar sense of the term. Our oils are not 'manufactured' in order to get 'sold' the way other vendors' oils are. We are happy to keep them, and not sell a single bottle of oud, knowing that oud oil of this calibre is irreplaceable at this point in time; and no doubt, it will skyrocket in value once wild agarwood is officially declared extinct.

There are vendors advertising oils they haven't even distilled yet. Yet others display graphs and calculations of how to produce the most economical oud possible, and keep producing, and selling, and producing, and selling... We have oils in our collection from 2001 which no one's even heard about. And the oils that are getting distilled by us now, well... maybe you'll be able to purchase them from my offspring one day.

So first and foremost, what you need to decide on is whether you're on a budget. You can't walk into the Rolls showroom and start complaining: 'How come they're so expensive!' Well, they're tailor-made to a certain standard, with NO compromises. It's like asking for a bespoke handmade automobile, and then complaining because it's not the same price as a Hyundai.

At Ensar Oud, the oils are made by me, to my personal taste and standard, for my own private collection, with no compromise on cost, quality, and what I call 'ecstasy factor'. Apart from agarwood oil, each bottle contains my sweat, my blood, and my tears. And this is something people say they can literally feel when they wear my oils.

I find no greater joy than when I share my distillations with my friends. Giving a bottle of Oud Shuayb to someone is an act of entrustment, not one of 'sale'. I am entrusting you with my oil and my toil, hoping that you will be thankful for it, and appreciate the time and effort that I put into making it.