Funk and the Nose of the Beholder
- Thread starter kesiro
- Start date
I'm not 'bashing' anyone because they have an opinion, my friend, only it so happens that almost all of dear @peter4ptv's opinions revolve around either proving to the world that I am lying about any and everything that I say (yesterday's 'Queen' of Abu Dhabi post a case in point) or that my oils are exorbitantly (and therefore unfairly) priced, with obviously 'identical' alternatives being readily available at a fraction of the cost. And this by a man who believes Ajmal's Masterpiece is the Holy Grail of agarwood oil. Not a question of monopoly at all, mi vida, only a question of get off my back with all the neurotic accusations.
Come to think of it, if equally amazing alternatives are so readily available, the amount of time being invested to prove to the world that I am a blatant ripoff is a bit peculiar -- especially if every single 'find' on the world wide web needs to be closely compared with one of my oils for it to have any meaning or relevance. Seen from that angle, it would appear that a monopoly is being built around me by the impartial egos of my anti-ambassadors, who are then so openmindedly offering their noses' opinions as to what constitutes an incredible opportunity to tear down that same monopoly with something of equal value.
You don't want 'bashing' and free discourse of honest opinions? then stop comparing every single oil to one of mine. Let that oil that you found at the Payless shop garner its own name and fame on the basis of its aromatic qualities, without 'piggybacking' its appeal on the appeal of my oils.
You don't want a 'monopoly'? Then stop giving me one by taking my oils as the 'gold bar' so you could then crash that bar's market value by offering your 'identical' alternative.
I am not here to bash anyone or make any claims. Get out of my hair, is all I'm saying.
Come to think of it, if equally amazing alternatives are so readily available, the amount of time being invested to prove to the world that I am a blatant ripoff is a bit peculiar -- especially if every single 'find' on the world wide web needs to be closely compared with one of my oils for it to have any meaning or relevance. Seen from that angle, it would appear that a monopoly is being built around me by the impartial egos of my anti-ambassadors, who are then so openmindedly offering their noses' opinions as to what constitutes an incredible opportunity to tear down that same monopoly with something of equal value.
You don't want 'bashing' and free discourse of honest opinions? then stop comparing every single oil to one of mine. Let that oil that you found at the Payless shop garner its own name and fame on the basis of its aromatic qualities, without 'piggybacking' its appeal on the appeal of my oils.
You don't want a 'monopoly'? Then stop giving me one by taking my oils as the 'gold bar' so you could then crash that bar's market value by offering your 'identical' alternative.
I am not here to bash anyone or make any claims. Get out of my hair, is all I'm saying.
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A
The monopoly is not being built around you. The monopoly already exists, as we've seen exemplified multiple times in the past in how certain topics were responded to.
There are two sides of the coin here:
One loves you and your oils.
The other dislikes you, but not your oils.
Of course, there are also people who don't care who made the oil, such as myself, and just like a good Oud.
If anything, it makes me cringe to see the status elevation that is done by some people. Especially terms like Sidi, Sayyidna Wa Habibna, Sayyidna? Our Lord? I don't have a problem with what goes on, not my business after all. But others see it and think, when did this stop becoming about Oud, and start becoming about elevating the status of a person just for making good oils? Of course, if people choose to do that, it sure as hell isn't your fault, but one must question, why do they do that? Why do they refer to you in such elevated terms that romanticize your persona? Is it really the oil? Many of the great oils you offer are not made by you either, oils like Tigerwood 1995 and Tigerwood Royale, Oud Sultani, OR85, Mysore 84, and all those great oils that your Taiwanese distiller has made. Is it the marketing technique then? Is it false advertisement that innocent ignorants accept as truth because they have no other choice? That's not for me to answer anyway. But that is the narrative being set forth by your so called anti-ambassadors.
What I think some people are trying to do is shed some light on the reality of the situation, which is quite simple, that you are human, like the rest of us. You are correct that their actions CAN cause further monopolization around you, but it is only if they cannot prove their statements to be true. Honestly, they can't prove the statements no matter how hard they tried. They would have to get people to try this oil that they claim is similar to yours for a fraction of the price. Following that people would have to agree that it does indeed smell similar to your oils. That would end monopolization. So due to this being the reality of the situation, they are in fact causing further monopolization unintentionally. Which is why I personally never bothered comparing any oils to yours. There is literally no point. I've tried a ton of oils from many different known vendors, as well as a ton from private distillers, there is literally no point for me to tell someone so and so oil smells like this vendor or that vendors oil if I won't send it to them myself. At the end, not many will take the risk to buy the oil, as people have already found comfort in the personal relationships they've built with their vendors.
As for the part where I said you bashed @peter4ptv for having an opinion, I will retract that statement due to me not fully understanding the history between the two of you and your previous encounters. Apologies.
Anyways, I wish your business remains prosperous and you continue to produce more good oils, and benefit from the business. I will remain a customer of yours, as I have always been, as well as a customer of all the other vendors.
SOTD: A friend of mine returned from Saudi recently and brought some really nice home made bukhoor with him.
There are two sides of the coin here:
One loves you and your oils.
The other dislikes you, but not your oils.
Of course, there are also people who don't care who made the oil, such as myself, and just like a good Oud.
If anything, it makes me cringe to see the status elevation that is done by some people. Especially terms like Sidi, Sayyidna Wa Habibna, Sayyidna? Our Lord? I don't have a problem with what goes on, not my business after all. But others see it and think, when did this stop becoming about Oud, and start becoming about elevating the status of a person just for making good oils? Of course, if people choose to do that, it sure as hell isn't your fault, but one must question, why do they do that? Why do they refer to you in such elevated terms that romanticize your persona? Is it really the oil? Many of the great oils you offer are not made by you either, oils like Tigerwood 1995 and Tigerwood Royale, Oud Sultani, OR85, Mysore 84, and all those great oils that your Taiwanese distiller has made. Is it the marketing technique then? Is it false advertisement that innocent ignorants accept as truth because they have no other choice? That's not for me to answer anyway. But that is the narrative being set forth by your so called anti-ambassadors.
What I think some people are trying to do is shed some light on the reality of the situation, which is quite simple, that you are human, like the rest of us. You are correct that their actions CAN cause further monopolization around you, but it is only if they cannot prove their statements to be true. Honestly, they can't prove the statements no matter how hard they tried. They would have to get people to try this oil that they claim is similar to yours for a fraction of the price. Following that people would have to agree that it does indeed smell similar to your oils. That would end monopolization. So due to this being the reality of the situation, they are in fact causing further monopolization unintentionally. Which is why I personally never bothered comparing any oils to yours. There is literally no point. I've tried a ton of oils from many different known vendors, as well as a ton from private distillers, there is literally no point for me to tell someone so and so oil smells like this vendor or that vendors oil if I won't send it to them myself. At the end, not many will take the risk to buy the oil, as people have already found comfort in the personal relationships they've built with their vendors.
As for the part where I said you bashed @peter4ptv for having an opinion, I will retract that statement due to me not fully understanding the history between the two of you and your previous encounters. Apologies.
Anyways, I wish your business remains prosperous and you continue to produce more good oils, and benefit from the business. I will remain a customer of yours, as I have always been, as well as a customer of all the other vendors.
SOTD: A friend of mine returned from Saudi recently and brought some really nice home made bukhoor with him.
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Ramadan Mubarak, Sabahul Khayr, Good Morning,
I'm confused about what to do. I oftentimes use other oils as reference when describing one particular oil as we lack a generally consented vocabulary of adjectives for describing oils. For example, I stated that the opening of Borai Choco Extreme smelled like Kehebatan. Does it smell exactly like Kehebatan? No. But a particular and specific stage in the development of BCE does smell similar to a very particular and specific stage in the development of Kehebatan; and again that's in MY opinion. A better way forward would be being very specific in review.
IMO a lot has to do with the focus of review, what experience the reviewer is focusing on especially when comparing oils from varying price points. Also, there should be comparison across the lifespan of the oil from what is smells like on the stick, through application, drydown, all the way until the oil can no longer be perceived; not just a cursory or casual sniff.
Case in point, one of my very knowledgeable OG's shared an oil with me that does smell similar to Kinam Rouge! It smells like a very particular and specific stage of KR; namely there are similarities in the top notes, the very first 5-10 minutes in the opening. On smell alone the other oil opens with a remarkably reminiscent sour, grape-y, slightly bitter opening similar to that of KR. But the richness and intensity of the smell is maybe 15-20% of that of KR. At about 20-25 minutes in the other oil takes on some juicy, red, fruity notes similar to those seen in the top notes of Pursat 2005. At around 1:15-1:30 the other oil begins to decrescendo into an oudy, but generic scent. At around that same time KR is just beginning to blossom into its golden-brown, moist, surreal, narcotic and psychedelic tobacco notes, continues to evolve with horizontal and vertical complexity and is perceivable 12 hours later. The other oil disappears in ~5 hours. Now, is the other oil a bad oil? No. IMO it's a good, budget friendly oil that I believe was distilled and cured correctly because it doesn't have any off notes. It does represent good value for a simple, everyday oil. However, IMO the diversity of infection and the quality/quantity of resin of the wood used to distill Kinam Rouge is apparent and much higher based on the development, complexity and richness of scent when compared to the other oil. If one only focused on similarities in the oils opening notes barring anything else in the development then they might say that the two oils are "alike".
@Alkhadra I certainly don't and won't get into any debate about Arabic but only want to convey how I see it habibi. Within Arabic you have things like classical Arabic of Al Qur'ān, Modern Standard Arabic, literary Arabic. You also have different dialects of Arabic spoken in different Arabic speaking countries as well as colloquial, spoken Arabic of those regions, which may assign slightly different meanings to particular vocabulary, especially in usage. As I have seen certain terms used, by a small few, like Sidi, Habibi, etc, (I searched and see no usage of sayyid or sayyidna) I do see them as signs of respect among men but in context they clearly do not mean more than saying Mr. or sir. I've seen others use these terms as well as seeing Ensar use the same terms. I don't believe that anyone is saying someone else is there master or lord. Just like what I said about someone focusing on certain fleetingly similar aspects of two oils and saying they're the same, someone is focusing on sidi/sayyid meaning Lord and it's usage, as I've seen here, as being or connoting the same meaning. It also goes to An Niyyah, and if I saw someone referring to another person as lord and I even suspected that their intention was to say Lord as in Rabb, as in Allah Rabbil 'Alamin, I'd do more than cringe, I'd be first to immediately question and correct them.
I'm confused about what to do. I oftentimes use other oils as reference when describing one particular oil as we lack a generally consented vocabulary of adjectives for describing oils. For example, I stated that the opening of Borai Choco Extreme smelled like Kehebatan. Does it smell exactly like Kehebatan? No. But a particular and specific stage in the development of BCE does smell similar to a very particular and specific stage in the development of Kehebatan; and again that's in MY opinion. A better way forward would be being very specific in review.
IMO a lot has to do with the focus of review, what experience the reviewer is focusing on especially when comparing oils from varying price points. Also, there should be comparison across the lifespan of the oil from what is smells like on the stick, through application, drydown, all the way until the oil can no longer be perceived; not just a cursory or casual sniff.
Case in point, one of my very knowledgeable OG's shared an oil with me that does smell similar to Kinam Rouge! It smells like a very particular and specific stage of KR; namely there are similarities in the top notes, the very first 5-10 minutes in the opening. On smell alone the other oil opens with a remarkably reminiscent sour, grape-y, slightly bitter opening similar to that of KR. But the richness and intensity of the smell is maybe 15-20% of that of KR. At about 20-25 minutes in the other oil takes on some juicy, red, fruity notes similar to those seen in the top notes of Pursat 2005. At around 1:15-1:30 the other oil begins to decrescendo into an oudy, but generic scent. At around that same time KR is just beginning to blossom into its golden-brown, moist, surreal, narcotic and psychedelic tobacco notes, continues to evolve with horizontal and vertical complexity and is perceivable 12 hours later. The other oil disappears in ~5 hours. Now, is the other oil a bad oil? No. IMO it's a good, budget friendly oil that I believe was distilled and cured correctly because it doesn't have any off notes. It does represent good value for a simple, everyday oil. However, IMO the diversity of infection and the quality/quantity of resin of the wood used to distill Kinam Rouge is apparent and much higher based on the development, complexity and richness of scent when compared to the other oil. If one only focused on similarities in the oils opening notes barring anything else in the development then they might say that the two oils are "alike".
@Alkhadra I certainly don't and won't get into any debate about Arabic but only want to convey how I see it habibi. Within Arabic you have things like classical Arabic of Al Qur'ān, Modern Standard Arabic, literary Arabic. You also have different dialects of Arabic spoken in different Arabic speaking countries as well as colloquial, spoken Arabic of those regions, which may assign slightly different meanings to particular vocabulary, especially in usage. As I have seen certain terms used, by a small few, like Sidi, Habibi, etc, (I searched and see no usage of sayyid or sayyidna) I do see them as signs of respect among men but in context they clearly do not mean more than saying Mr. or sir. I've seen others use these terms as well as seeing Ensar use the same terms. I don't believe that anyone is saying someone else is there master or lord. Just like what I said about someone focusing on certain fleetingly similar aspects of two oils and saying they're the same, someone is focusing on sidi/sayyid meaning Lord and it's usage, as I've seen here, as being or connoting the same meaning. It also goes to An Niyyah, and if I saw someone referring to another person as lord and I even suspected that their intention was to say Lord as in Rabb, as in Allah Rabbil 'Alamin, I'd do more than cringe, I'd be first to immediately question and correct them.
Ramadan Mubarak to all!
There is one pernicious falsehood which unfortunately is the source of many disagreements in how to appreciate oud oils, which is that 'smell is subjective'.
If smell is subjective, then all noses are equal, all smells are equal (since their value is in the nose of the beholder) and statements such as 'good smelling' or 'bad smelling' lose all their meaning. In this realm of absurdity, the poorest quality plantation oil can theoretically and actually be better than a high quality wild oil; or, the clay model of a child can surpass the most revered statues of the Buddha.
To quote a German philosopher: 'Relativism reduces every element of absoluteness to relativity while making a completely illogical exception in favour of this reduction itself. Fundamentally it consists in propounding the claim that there is no truth as if this were truth or in declaring it to be absolutely true that there is nothing but the relatively true; one might just as well say that there is no language or write that there is no writing.'
It is not that smell lacks subjectivity, it is that it is not totally subjective. There is also an objective hierarchy to which we can turn - such is the basis for classification of grades of wood and also for the evaluation of oils. It is also the basis of an educational curriculum, should someone wish to train their nose in this science. If we admit that there is an objectivity to smells, then we admit to expertise and a learning curve. If that is admitted, then there are teachers, there are better noses, and better oils.
This is not to deny the subjective component of smelling, which is greater in scent than in visual art, for instance. The above was simply written because I have often seen this statement - 'scent is subjective' - with no qualification whatsoever, and taken as the starting point for undermining the objective value of an oil.
In the oud market, there is a large gulf between the knowledge and expertise of distillers and that of connoisseurs. Surely, years of being on site for distillation and selection of the wood has an enormous effect on one's ability to evaluate the quality of the final product. It is conceivable that even the finest appreciation of a connoisseur will miss certain nuances, such as changes in particular distillation parameters. If we take this as true, then there is a degree of reliance on the distiller's expertise in how we evaluate oils - not a total reliance of course, but the reliance that any student has on a teacher.
In my personal experience, it took a very long study of Taha's Kalyani to really see what was meant by the oleoresin in relation to other auxiliary notes. I followed the curriculum, and I believe that I learned from it. Certainly my nose now confirms a lot of what especially Ensar and Taha have written about their oils.
One can trust the authority, one can distrust the authority - that is a matter of personal evaluation. The general consensus of this forum is to trust particular authorities, and move forward with that.
As for what you have written @Alkhadra regarding 'Sidi', either you are unaware of its provenance or you misunderstand it - it is a practice common to certain North African turuq to address a person with his theomorphic or fullest capacity in mind - you may still have your objection but it has nothing to do with Ensar.
There is one pernicious falsehood which unfortunately is the source of many disagreements in how to appreciate oud oils, which is that 'smell is subjective'.
If smell is subjective, then all noses are equal, all smells are equal (since their value is in the nose of the beholder) and statements such as 'good smelling' or 'bad smelling' lose all their meaning. In this realm of absurdity, the poorest quality plantation oil can theoretically and actually be better than a high quality wild oil; or, the clay model of a child can surpass the most revered statues of the Buddha.
To quote a German philosopher: 'Relativism reduces every element of absoluteness to relativity while making a completely illogical exception in favour of this reduction itself. Fundamentally it consists in propounding the claim that there is no truth as if this were truth or in declaring it to be absolutely true that there is nothing but the relatively true; one might just as well say that there is no language or write that there is no writing.'
It is not that smell lacks subjectivity, it is that it is not totally subjective. There is also an objective hierarchy to which we can turn - such is the basis for classification of grades of wood and also for the evaluation of oils. It is also the basis of an educational curriculum, should someone wish to train their nose in this science. If we admit that there is an objectivity to smells, then we admit to expertise and a learning curve. If that is admitted, then there are teachers, there are better noses, and better oils.
This is not to deny the subjective component of smelling, which is greater in scent than in visual art, for instance. The above was simply written because I have often seen this statement - 'scent is subjective' - with no qualification whatsoever, and taken as the starting point for undermining the objective value of an oil.
In the oud market, there is a large gulf between the knowledge and expertise of distillers and that of connoisseurs. Surely, years of being on site for distillation and selection of the wood has an enormous effect on one's ability to evaluate the quality of the final product. It is conceivable that even the finest appreciation of a connoisseur will miss certain nuances, such as changes in particular distillation parameters. If we take this as true, then there is a degree of reliance on the distiller's expertise in how we evaluate oils - not a total reliance of course, but the reliance that any student has on a teacher.
In my personal experience, it took a very long study of Taha's Kalyani to really see what was meant by the oleoresin in relation to other auxiliary notes. I followed the curriculum, and I believe that I learned from it. Certainly my nose now confirms a lot of what especially Ensar and Taha have written about their oils.
One can trust the authority, one can distrust the authority - that is a matter of personal evaluation. The general consensus of this forum is to trust particular authorities, and move forward with that.
As for what you have written @Alkhadra regarding 'Sidi', either you are unaware of its provenance or you misunderstand it - it is a practice common to certain North African turuq to address a person with his theomorphic or fullest capacity in mind - you may still have your objection but it has nothing to do with Ensar.
PEARL sensei, your post is up there with a few others with the highest wisdom to word ratio. I believe you articulated exactly what I was thinking and could never express with such clarity. There are stages of an oil's scent development which can echo another, sometimes quite strongly. So on a rudimentary basis, someone can sniff an oil for a few seconds and say, OMG, that smells just like KR, case in point the oil you are referring to. Yet, in reality, the two are miles apart overall. So a fleeting intial thought that you found high end oil for a fraction of the price is only a delusion.
Now, having said that, considering the appeal of finding good quality everyday oud, I see no problem and actually a lot of usefulness with making comparisons like you articulated. This gives us a sense of the profiles so we can consider oils based on our own preferences.
Now, having said that, considering the appeal of finding good quality everyday oud, I see no problem and actually a lot of usefulness with making comparisons like you articulated. This gives us a sense of the profiles so we can consider oils based on our own preferences.
Hi Ensar, i am sorry for you to think that i have anything against your oils but this is totally misunderstanding on your part please check my post on top 5 oils and number 1 is Yunnan 03 not MP and i have post it this publicly here and on ouddict, and is still number 1 today for me is just incredible oil.
do you think if i have anything against your oils i will publicly post that my number 1 oil is from you?
as you said it yourself some of your oils are a benchmark of oud (you need to learn to take criticism if any same as you taking praise of your oils) and many people are saying this and that smells like borneo3000 or this and that smells like OR1.
so i don't see why so many people here get so upset when i say this oil smells like one of your oils. and is not even like some say this smells like something but with out any proof, that is why even i provide it the link, not just like hey i have this mystery oil i got from somewhere and it smells like OR1.
do you think if i have anything against your oils i will publicly post that my number 1 oil is from you?
as you said it yourself some of your oils are a benchmark of oud (you need to learn to take criticism if any same as you taking praise of your oils) and many people are saying this and that smells like borneo3000 or this and that smells like OR1.
so i don't see why so many people here get so upset when i say this oil smells like one of your oils. and is not even like some say this smells like something but with out any proof, that is why even i provide it the link, not just like hey i have this mystery oil i got from somewhere and it smells like OR1.
That's not the key issue here, Sidi Peter. It's a question of always taking what I say as fictional fairy tales and trying to prove to the world that I am making stuff up. Trust me, when I say the Queen (or Sheikha, or Sultana, or whatever) of Abu Dhabi bought a good portion of Tigerwood Royale with a shopping bagful of $10K bundles, she really DID do that. I'm not making it up. I made no such statements about much more expensive oils other than to say what I feel about them, and they've sold just fine. I don't need to make up lies to make a sale. The quality of the product speaks for itself. Разбирате ли, брат Петър?
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Anladım, benim icin inanmak biraz zor geliyor, but its ok. now i have something that is Queen worth it.
by the way this one is also very similar for me to the Queen,s oud i don't know maybe my nose needs alignment but i will say like 90% similarity.
http://www.houseofmisk.com/storev2/store.php?page=viewproduct&product=pure-oud-malay-encens
also i don't see why you don't like comparing oils to yours? i think for me this is very helpful to purchase blind and i am sure many members agree that this is very helpful.
me personally stop describing notes a while back on basenotes because some member got an oud base on my description than publicly post it that smells nothing like my description and smells like old moldy carton boxes, well i think that was first interaction with oud for this person because the oud was Sam Yan and many people find this oud very pleasurable.
so that is why now only do comparing to other ouds, oh well maybe i need to stop doing this also........................
by the way this one is also very similar for me to the Queen,s oud i don't know maybe my nose needs alignment but i will say like 90% similarity.
http://www.houseofmisk.com/storev2/store.php?page=viewproduct&product=pure-oud-malay-encens
also i don't see why you don't like comparing oils to yours? i think for me this is very helpful to purchase blind and i am sure many members agree that this is very helpful.
me personally stop describing notes a while back on basenotes because some member got an oud base on my description than publicly post it that smells nothing like my description and smells like old moldy carton boxes, well i think that was first interaction with oud for this person because the oud was Sam Yan and many people find this oud very pleasurable.
so that is why now only do comparing to other ouds, oh well maybe i need to stop doing this also........................
@peter4ptv I don't usually feed the trolls but I'll make an exception here. You have posted elsewhere that when you burn agarwood or premium incense that you only smell smoke. You have also posted that you have no interest in holding your hand to your nose to find out the nuances and depths that certain oud oils can give. Therefore, Etsy, Ebay etc. oils may seem the same to you as other more expensive oils, due to your poor olfactory senses, but in reality they are obviously very different to each other. So, when you make these posts about oils being 100% the same, nobody with any sense can ever really take you seriously. You risk making a fool of yourself. Peace. (Mods, please delete if not appropriate.)
interesting now i am a troll, dear John FYI about me smelling mostly smoke is not due to poor olfactory senses, but the other way around on this issue actually i was advice that my senses are more acute than the average person and this come from a person who's day job is a perfumer and distiller of artisanal oils.
her below is the comment to my post:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peter4ptv said: ↑
still cannot get to the sticks and agarwood chips to burn all just smells like smoke with no aroma to me, the only think i burn is:
Royal Green Hojari Frankincense
It calms and relaxes me nicely............................................................................................................................................
Sensitive sense of smell, this means your senses are more acute than the average person; a good thing for someone who loves smelling.
What you will need to do is gradually introduce heating from a distant, for example burn the scent in another room in the house, maybe with open windows, then you be in another room. Slowly get your calibration adjusted with the heated scent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh and by the way this problem has been resolve for me after getting some tips how to burn wood.
Now I leave the wood burn without been in the room while burns and to enjoy the aroma I need to get in the room at least an hour later to enjoy the actual oil/resin aromas.
her below is the comment to my post:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
peter4ptv said: ↑
still cannot get to the sticks and agarwood chips to burn all just smells like smoke with no aroma to me, the only think i burn is:
Royal Green Hojari Frankincense
It calms and relaxes me nicely............................................................................................................................................
Sensitive sense of smell, this means your senses are more acute than the average person; a good thing for someone who loves smelling.
What you will need to do is gradually introduce heating from a distant, for example burn the scent in another room in the house, maybe with open windows, then you be in another room. Slowly get your calibration adjusted with the heated scent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh and by the way this problem has been resolve for me after getting some tips how to burn wood.
Now I leave the wood burn without been in the room while burns and to enjoy the aroma I need to get in the room at least an hour later to enjoy the actual oil/resin aromas.
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Personally I've experienced what @PEARL mentioned. First time meeting @Taha I knew little to nothing about oud, and was blown away by many of his oils, most memorably Sutera Ungu (where are more oils from Terengganu guys???).
One day I met a guy who showed me a cheapie Malaysian cultivated oil, and when I smelled the first impression was ..."This smells like Sutera Ungu! What is going on??!!"...guess what the price for 3ml for that one was about $28. Compare it to $595 I was definitely confused. Then I did a side by side (got a sample of sutera) with that oil. Smell cheapie , nice. Smell sutera, nice, smell cheapie again, wait where did all the good smell go? And that was the first hint of the long oud journey trail..and I followed the cookie crumbs all the way to Taha's house time and time again (JazakAllaah khayr Taha for all the hospitality and learning experience)...still learning, especially with the oleoresin vs auxiliary notes discussion. now, I dare say I'm STARTING to get it,but far from being an intermediate or expert.
Well @peter4ptv , we don't interact much nor do we know each other personally. but throughout the course of 2017 (roughly), I noticed that whenever a chance to "take a shot" at Taha or Ensar pops up, you were the fastest / one of the fastest to do so (one case for instance that came to mind while writing this, was the swimming pool "joke" aimed at Taha). Maybe my observation in this matter is flawed..I don't know. Something just doesn't feel right to me.
Also, IMHO, naming Ensar's oils as being some of the best doesn't justify doing the stuff that made him want you to "get out of his hair". I'd be super annoyed if that happened to me, whether it involves business or not.
The kind of observation, analysis, campaigning, and at times judgement (occasionally very quick judgements) you do for Taha and Ensar's stuff, I don't see much of the same vigor regarding the oils of other vendors..when there's a chance, almost surely peter will be there...well being the new guy in the oud scene, I guess I just can't find the "missing link" yet..maybe there's a history involving yourself contributing to all this..I just don't know ..just my observation
One day I met a guy who showed me a cheapie Malaysian cultivated oil, and when I smelled the first impression was ..."This smells like Sutera Ungu! What is going on??!!"...guess what the price for 3ml for that one was about $28. Compare it to $595 I was definitely confused. Then I did a side by side (got a sample of sutera) with that oil. Smell cheapie , nice. Smell sutera, nice, smell cheapie again, wait where did all the good smell go? And that was the first hint of the long oud journey trail..and I followed the cookie crumbs all the way to Taha's house time and time again (JazakAllaah khayr Taha for all the hospitality and learning experience)...still learning, especially with the oleoresin vs auxiliary notes discussion. now, I dare say I'm STARTING to get it,but far from being an intermediate or expert.
Well @peter4ptv , we don't interact much nor do we know each other personally. but throughout the course of 2017 (roughly), I noticed that whenever a chance to "take a shot" at Taha or Ensar pops up, you were the fastest / one of the fastest to do so (one case for instance that came to mind while writing this, was the swimming pool "joke" aimed at Taha). Maybe my observation in this matter is flawed..I don't know. Something just doesn't feel right to me.
Also, IMHO, naming Ensar's oils as being some of the best doesn't justify doing the stuff that made him want you to "get out of his hair". I'd be super annoyed if that happened to me, whether it involves business or not.
The kind of observation, analysis, campaigning, and at times judgement (occasionally very quick judgements) you do for Taha and Ensar's stuff, I don't see much of the same vigor regarding the oils of other vendors..when there's a chance, almost surely peter will be there...well being the new guy in the oud scene, I guess I just can't find the "missing link" yet..maybe there's a history involving yourself contributing to all this..I just don't know ..just my observation
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A
I am really interested in this topic and have pondered about it for quite some time. Specifically the "smell is subjective" part. Smell is subjective no matter how we look at it, as each and every person perceives notes and nuances differently, while also appreciating and liking different notes. For example, one person might like Hindis, because to their nose and personal preference, they like it's smell better than something else. What one describes as pleasant, someone else would not. This in fact literally proves that not all noses are created equal, quite literally what you said.
Furthermore, smell is also subjective in the sense of comparison. One might compare the smoothness of an oil, darkness, sillage, projection, top/middle/base notes, or any combination of the above. Which basically falls in line with what our brother @PEARL spoke about in his comparison between KR and a different oil.
Generally, when I smell an oil, I take many tests with it, and focus on many different notes and nuances over long periods of time, as well as swipe on different regions of my body that have different heat temperatures, such as hand vs. wrist, where wrists are hotter due to pulse points. So with this in mind, we all do have our unique experiences on how we smell an oil, oils might also smell different to us due to our body chemistry and the reaction of the oil with our skin. As @Taha has mentioned in the past, a person's diet also effects how an oil smells on them and to them. I recall him mentioning that he knew one of his friends ate honey due to how the Oud smelt on them. I'm sure everyone who has been fasting during this holy month of Ramadan has also noticed that their sense of smell is quite different while fasting, I sure have!
Now, to the part where you said "Not all noses are created equal". True, and not all noses have had the same amount of exposure either. So how can we measure the superiority of ones nose over another? A vendor might have had more exposure than a connoisseur, yet, that does not conclude that they have superior noses. Also, when speaking about perfume in general, to truly be able to dissect a smell, one is usually trained by experts. So, even if we were to conclude that an someone was trained by an expert, it STILL does not mean that their nose is superior! Rather, the nose has better learnt to dissect the smell due to the process of comparing and contrasting between many different smells. Someone else might pick up the same exact notes but not have the ability to express what they are smelling due to not enough exposure for comparison with other smells. What one might say smells like Vanilla, another might say it smells like Vanilla from Madagascar.
As for your argument made that a poor quality plantation oil can theoretically be better than a high quality wild oil, my answer is: why not? What if the high quality oil was distilled so badly that it became unappealing? And the poor quality plantation was distilled so perfectly that it became appealing? @Ensar said that his Jing Shen Lu (although definitely not poor quality) fits right in with the oils from his Sultan Series, which uses much higher quality materials, if this is true, then what you're saying can't be true.
As for the basic categorization of grades, how would we grade woods? Scent, size, age, resination, part from tree? A kodo master will prefer something entirely different to an Arab Sheikh. One might find that the smokey harshness of burning at high temp is more appealing to low temp nuance listening. One might find the work of one artist more visually appealing to another. The writing style of one writer more appealing than another. Preference is subjective. Comparison of scent is subject, that theoretically can be trained within what are supposedly objective boundaries defined by those the masses deem to be authoritative on the topic.
These are just my thoughts on the topic anyway that have lead me to believe scent is subjective.
As for the Sidi calling I was just trying to explain the idea behind a narrative of a certain imperative.
SOTD: OM4 - EO
Furthermore, smell is also subjective in the sense of comparison. One might compare the smoothness of an oil, darkness, sillage, projection, top/middle/base notes, or any combination of the above. Which basically falls in line with what our brother @PEARL spoke about in his comparison between KR and a different oil.
Generally, when I smell an oil, I take many tests with it, and focus on many different notes and nuances over long periods of time, as well as swipe on different regions of my body that have different heat temperatures, such as hand vs. wrist, where wrists are hotter due to pulse points. So with this in mind, we all do have our unique experiences on how we smell an oil, oils might also smell different to us due to our body chemistry and the reaction of the oil with our skin. As @Taha has mentioned in the past, a person's diet also effects how an oil smells on them and to them. I recall him mentioning that he knew one of his friends ate honey due to how the Oud smelt on them. I'm sure everyone who has been fasting during this holy month of Ramadan has also noticed that their sense of smell is quite different while fasting, I sure have!
Now, to the part where you said "Not all noses are created equal". True, and not all noses have had the same amount of exposure either. So how can we measure the superiority of ones nose over another? A vendor might have had more exposure than a connoisseur, yet, that does not conclude that they have superior noses. Also, when speaking about perfume in general, to truly be able to dissect a smell, one is usually trained by experts. So, even if we were to conclude that an someone was trained by an expert, it STILL does not mean that their nose is superior! Rather, the nose has better learnt to dissect the smell due to the process of comparing and contrasting between many different smells. Someone else might pick up the same exact notes but not have the ability to express what they are smelling due to not enough exposure for comparison with other smells. What one might say smells like Vanilla, another might say it smells like Vanilla from Madagascar.
As for your argument made that a poor quality plantation oil can theoretically be better than a high quality wild oil, my answer is: why not? What if the high quality oil was distilled so badly that it became unappealing? And the poor quality plantation was distilled so perfectly that it became appealing? @Ensar said that his Jing Shen Lu (although definitely not poor quality) fits right in with the oils from his Sultan Series, which uses much higher quality materials, if this is true, then what you're saying can't be true.
As for the basic categorization of grades, how would we grade woods? Scent, size, age, resination, part from tree? A kodo master will prefer something entirely different to an Arab Sheikh. One might find that the smokey harshness of burning at high temp is more appealing to low temp nuance listening. One might find the work of one artist more visually appealing to another. The writing style of one writer more appealing than another. Preference is subjective. Comparison of scent is subject, that theoretically can be trained within what are supposedly objective boundaries defined by those the masses deem to be authoritative on the topic.
These are just my thoughts on the topic anyway that have lead me to believe scent is subjective.
As for the Sidi calling
I was just trying to explain the idea behind a narrative of a certain imperative.SOTD: OM4 - EO
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Hmm...perhaps there should be a space for the philosophy of oud on this forum. There are some things which need to be said about scientism and distillation as well.
@Alkhadra if I am to answer you on this point of subjectivity, I will have to do so thoroughly and I hope readers of the thread will bear with us.
If someone were to tell me that a child's English surpassed Shakespeare's, I would take it as self-evidently true that that is a false statement. If one agrees with its falsity, then one agrees that there are objective criteria by which a standard for English can be established. Now, a person may prefer to read the child's English than to read Shakespeare, but this is not a reflection of the objective quality of the work, it is simply the preference of a particular reader.
To draw an analogy beloved to @PEARL and myself, one can say that objectively Federer is better than Nadal, and still prefer to watch Nadal - in preferring to watch Nadal one does not make a judgement, implicit or explicit, that he is better at tennis than Federer. Likewise, one can be aware of the quality of an oil and still have a preference for oil of a different region - for instance a Maroke addict could pass up a sinking grade Malay distillation which was obviously of a higher quality, quality referring here both to raw materials and expertise of distillation.
The point of the above is to say that preference does not strictly equate to a judgement on the quality of an oil. In fact, such judgement aims to reside outside the realm of preference, since it seeks to come to a conclusion about the quality of an oil as such.
I want to emphasise also, I don't deny the subjective element in the appreciation of an oil at all - I agree with you that different noses can have completely different takes on an oil. My point is to say that there is also grounds for objectivity. This is I believe what Taha was referring to when he said how refreshing it was to meet Ensar and see that he had the same reaction to high quality oils that Taha did. Quality is quality, and it exists alongside our preferences.
Finally, I should say that the above arguments are derived from a metaphysical starting point - one cannot refer to a self-evident truth without saying Truth as such, and if one says Truth as such, one is in the domain of a metaphysic which is close to Plato or Ibn Arabi. I am only saying that since it stands in contrast to the modern worldview, and may clarify for the reader the basis for a self-evident truth.
I would also add that strictly speaking, one can never have a pure subject or a pure object, seeing as the total object (i.e. the metacosmos) would include the subject (i.e. man or consciousness), and the total subject (man) includes by comprehension the object (the metacosmos). In this sense, subjectivity and objectivity are effectively manners of speaking.
@Alkhadra if I am to answer you on this point of subjectivity, I will have to do so thoroughly and I hope readers of the thread will bear with us.
If someone were to tell me that a child's English surpassed Shakespeare's, I would take it as self-evidently true that that is a false statement. If one agrees with its falsity, then one agrees that there are objective criteria by which a standard for English can be established. Now, a person may prefer to read the child's English than to read Shakespeare, but this is not a reflection of the objective quality of the work, it is simply the preference of a particular reader.
To draw an analogy beloved to @PEARL and myself, one can say that objectively Federer is better than Nadal, and still prefer to watch Nadal - in preferring to watch Nadal one does not make a judgement, implicit or explicit, that he is better at tennis than Federer. Likewise, one can be aware of the quality of an oil and still have a preference for oil of a different region - for instance a Maroke addict could pass up a sinking grade Malay distillation which was obviously of a higher quality, quality referring here both to raw materials and expertise of distillation.
The point of the above is to say that preference does not strictly equate to a judgement on the quality of an oil. In fact, such judgement aims to reside outside the realm of preference, since it seeks to come to a conclusion about the quality of an oil as such.
I want to emphasise also, I don't deny the subjective element in the appreciation of an oil at all - I agree with you that different noses can have completely different takes on an oil. My point is to say that there is also grounds for objectivity. This is I believe what Taha was referring to when he said how refreshing it was to meet Ensar and see that he had the same reaction to high quality oils that Taha did. Quality is quality, and it exists alongside our preferences.
Finally, I should say that the above arguments are derived from a metaphysical starting point - one cannot refer to a self-evident truth without saying Truth as such, and if one says Truth as such, one is in the domain of a metaphysic which is close to Plato or Ibn Arabi. I am only saying that since it stands in contrast to the modern worldview, and may clarify for the reader the basis for a self-evident truth.
I would also add that strictly speaking, one can never have a pure subject or a pure object, seeing as the total object (i.e. the metacosmos) would include the subject (i.e. man or consciousness), and the total subject (man) includes by comprehension the object (the metacosmos). In this sense, subjectivity and objectivity are effectively manners of speaking.
There are many interesting points raised above. Let me offer a few from the "scientific" background. It is believed that our sense of smell peaks at an early age. There is some disagreement about when it begins to decline, but fairly uniform consensus it does decline. There is also some scientific basis for the belief that mental and physical health have a significant effect on smelling ability. Interestingly, women outperform men in smelling ability. Also, there appear to be some racial differences in how sense deteriorates with age. Environmental factors: smoke, smoking, chemicals, pollutants have significant effects on our sense of smell.
And, not really scientific, I ponder the point made about the basis of how some of us crave the barny, animalic Hindi scent, and others hate it. Is that our 'subjective' sense of smell differences talking, or are we smelling the same qualities and our olfactory cortex and brain determines whether it smells good to us, or not.
Happy Friday!
And, not really scientific, I ponder the point made about the basis of how some of us crave the barny, animalic Hindi scent, and others hate it. Is that our 'subjective' sense of smell differences talking, or are we smelling the same qualities and our olfactory cortex and brain determines whether it smells good to us, or not.
Happy Friday!
RobertOne replied to a thread you are watching at Gaharu.
SOTD
peter4ptv
if you like Purple Kinam, you can try this one it is 100% same for a fraction of the cost:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/281746832/super-premium-vietnamese-agarwood?ref=shop_home_active_12
That's quite a claim indeed, Peter.
Are you the vendor on etsy? If not, how did you come across it?
As an aside to all other distinguished members of these here forums, the only other oil that I have tried that begins to approach EO PK is FO Piara, but then it only captures roughly 70% of all the notes being found in PK. Piara is an extremely good value oud for what it is, but PK in so many ways stands alone before the forum in it's sheer Imperium (in the ancient roman definition) of what is is.
For all newcomers to these parts I would strongly urge you all to get even the tiny sample size to appreciate it as is one of a group of very rare Ouds that those who are appreciate of the art grok on so many levels and marvel at it's sheer brilliance but is also admired by all and sundry out there.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hi Robert, no i am not the vendor i am just an oud aficionado, well at least i was one at an earlier time.
i just found it browsing etsy and it look good for me ask few questions the vendor and decide to try it. than the real surprise was when receive it and smell it it was 100% KR not matter how i test it and sniff it. well everybody is different and my olfactory system is not that great, but another person who likes KR very much and i recommend it to try it say that is: very close not 100% identical but even better with more complexity and depth but slightly less refined than the KR.
SOTD
peter4ptv
if you like Purple Kinam, you can try this one it is 100% same for a fraction of the cost:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/281746832/super-premium-vietnamese-agarwood?ref=shop_home_active_12
That's quite a claim indeed, Peter.
Are you the vendor on etsy? If not, how did you come across it?
As an aside to all other distinguished members of these here forums, the only other oil that I have tried that begins to approach EO PK is FO Piara, but then it only captures roughly 70% of all the notes being found in PK. Piara is an extremely good value oud for what it is, but PK in so many ways stands alone before the forum in it's sheer Imperium (in the ancient roman definition) of what is is.
For all newcomers to these parts I would strongly urge you all to get even the tiny sample size to appreciate it as is one of a group of very rare Ouds that those who are appreciate of the art grok on so many levels and marvel at it's sheer brilliance but is also admired by all and sundry out there.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hi Robert, no i am not the vendor i am just an oud aficionado, well at least i was one at an earlier time.
i just found it browsing etsy and it look good for me ask few questions the vendor and decide to try it. than the real surprise was when receive it and smell it it was 100% KR not matter how i test it and sniff it. well everybody is different and my olfactory system is not that great, but another person who likes KR very much and i recommend it to try it say that is: very close not 100% identical but even better with more complexity and depth but slightly less refined than the KR.
Let me make this clear, I deleted the above post scarcely two minutes after I posted it because I saw the later correction about how you mistyped KR to be PK. You sir, pounce quicker than the legendary Robinson's 'Old Tom' - a champion mouser!
Happy Friday to you too, Kesiro.
I am going in with tuppence' of my own thoughts now that I have read how this thread has blossomed into something KarlRovian, and to my chagin, I must agree wholeheartedly with our resident surfer La-La Land tanned and trim Moderator. (Yes, this is jealousy!)
It's all about the nose.
As Shirley MacLaine famously stated "You create your own reality" and when it comes to scent certainly race (phenotype), sex and individual difference do have massive effects on how you experience the world all the way from colour blindness in men and the opposide in women, because of course one hunted and one gathered. Easy to spot a rusty-coloured woolly mammoth charging at you but for picking out different types of berries, some just a subtle shade away from yummy to deadly when trying to nourish your infants, it needs more discriminating cones and rods.
However, by individual, there are very wide variations. My wife atypically has a poor sense of smell, likes very, very few scents, is annoyed by many more and even said once that EO OM smelled like fresh linen to her. However, when it comes to some typically masculine intellectual skillsets at her job she prods bottom against almost every man she comes across. Her brother, however, did try one sample of EO, I forget which one it was, and he almost wept and punched a wall because he know he would never be able to justify the purchase to himself yet almost all her family and their friends ignore Ouds.
YMMV.
Now, as to the ongoing theme of Ensar baiting, let's take it all with a pinch of salt, shall we? I think almost everyone agrees that everything he produces personally or sells is really good at any price point and although comparisons are obviously going to be made with his top priced products no one is being forced to buy, try or even look at them from a certain angle. Haters gonna hate.
I am going in with tuppence' of my own thoughts now that I have read how this thread has blossomed into something KarlRovian, and to my chagin, I must agree wholeheartedly with our resident surfer La-La Land tanned and trim Moderator. (Yes, this is jealousy!)
It's all about the nose.
As Shirley MacLaine famously stated "You create your own reality" and when it comes to scent certainly race (phenotype), sex and individual difference do have massive effects on how you experience the world all the way from colour blindness in men and the opposide in women, because of course one hunted and one gathered. Easy to spot a rusty-coloured woolly mammoth charging at you but for picking out different types of berries, some just a subtle shade away from yummy to deadly when trying to nourish your infants, it needs more discriminating cones and rods.
However, by individual, there are very wide variations. My wife atypically has a poor sense of smell, likes very, very few scents, is annoyed by many more and even said once that EO OM smelled like fresh linen to her. However, when it comes to some typically masculine intellectual skillsets at her job she prods bottom against almost every man she comes across. Her brother, however, did try one sample of EO, I forget which one it was, and he almost wept and punched a wall because he know he would never be able to justify the purchase to himself yet almost all her family and their friends ignore Ouds.
YMMV.
Now, as to the ongoing theme of Ensar baiting, let's take it all with a pinch of salt, shall we? I think almost everyone agrees that everything he produces personally or sells is really good at any price point and although comparisons are obviously going to be made with his top priced products no one is being forced to buy, try or even look at them from a certain angle. Haters gonna hate.
Juicy!
Am I the only one who realizes (or at least thinks) that @Alkhadra and @Shabby are actually in agreement?
During @Adam's visit when we shot the last video, it was actually triple the length and I had to trim it down, but the main topic in that long discussion (and still a chunk preserved in the final cut) dealt with precisely this.
A lot of my recent releases — and in some cases solely and very specifically — have tied into this... yep, the 'LOT' curriculum.
Regrettably, the explosion that happened was supposed to be a very important instalment as well, to go side-by-side with another unreleased oil.
Any how, I for one will eagerly see how this dialogue plays out.
@m.arif, you're selling yourself short. I have never seen a nose advance as quickly as yours. For example, are you forgetting that recently every sample of oil that you'd bring over for my assessment, you had already concluded the same things that I would tell you (and likewise, oils I'd show you and hear your views first before I'd share more on them)? I think being pekerja saya put you on the fast-track.
Am I the only one who realizes (or at least thinks) that @Alkhadra and @Shabby are actually in agreement?
During @Adam's visit when we shot the last video, it was actually triple the length and I had to trim it down, but the main topic in that long discussion (and still a chunk preserved in the final cut) dealt with precisely this.
A lot of my recent releases — and in some cases solely and very specifically — have tied into this... yep, the 'LOT' curriculum.
Regrettably, the explosion that happened was supposed to be a very important instalment as well, to go side-by-side with another unreleased oil.
Any how, I for one will eagerly see how this dialogue plays out.
@m.arif, you're selling yourself short. I have never seen a nose advance as quickly as yours. For example, are you forgetting that recently every sample of oil that you'd bring over for my assessment, you had already concluded the same things that I would tell you (and likewise, oils I'd show you and hear your views first before I'd share more on them)? I think being pekerja saya put you on the fast-track.
