Future Of Oud Kickstarter

[RobertOne]

Reading about Oud Yusuf and in the case of Adam's Mai Bo Rai's truly natural, mixed use organic plantations (gutted that I missed buying some, Adam, gutted!) was poetry and brought hope for the future of Oud.

I know that in some countries, Thailand for sure, that there are restrictions on farangs owning land itself however according to thaiguru there are valid ways around these restrictions, so allow me to make a proposal here.

A Kickstarter.

Buying or renting previously prime growing areas on private / goverment land that have been despoiled by careless, wanton destruction that were deforestrated by the lost and the damned. Because of this, it might be possible to get the best potential 'terroir' for the smallest outlay. Some money might have to be used for soil regeneration, but might that not be worth it?

Now, the second part of my idea... It's been disturbing to read of Taha's accounts of his hunters being robbed and similar accounts, after the trees are planted and allowed to mature for decades upon decades before resination over further decades, perhaps helped along by vintage Vietnam war era bullets, what is to prevent a gang of thieves from just coming along and levelling our precious Aquilaria?

Ecotourism.

Luxe or Semi-Luxe treehouses or glamping. All solar powered, all mod cons.

Why pay for security when You, I, Bhanny, Shabby, Thomas S, all you lovely Oud lovers and also just unrelated green friendly paying guests who are relaxing amongst some of the semi-wild plantations drinking profitable kyara teas and coffee? One sniff of a chainsaw and we get on the phone to the local police or army who's local big cheeses have been invited to stay as guests from time to time for free, of course and they bring uniforms with very big guns and handcuffs on the fly. Soon this would discourage the very naughty boys.

Not just by and for you artisans but also for we Oudlovers. Our more modest contribution would get us, for example, reduced prices (had to say that being Scottish!) or guaranteed quantities availble for purchase per year as well as visits.

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[Ensar Oud]

You'd have to wait at least 20 years for the lowest possible 'artisanal' grade organic distill, and the investment would outweigh the rewards of having freshly juiced organic oud 20 years down the line.

Alternative:

Invest NOW in the cheapest wild harvested ouds you can find (that are already 20 years aged), and have enough oil for 20 years, in addition to making a KILLING on a 40 year old wild oud 20 years later, when you'd be just starting to harvest the cultivated trees.

You'd need huge plots of land to distill anything worth writing home about (the average farmer in Thailand has several hundred to several thousand trees) and the aging, headaches involved, along with costs, time, etc, just makes the aged oils that are available for cheap now such a superior investment.

Of course, you're welcome to pursue the cultivation route if you so wish. I'd be happy to put you in touch with ethical farmers in Thailand (as Taha would be able to do in Malaysia) and we can even meet there to discuss any tree purchase you might be interested in. Glad to be of help in any way I can, RobertOne!

 

[RobertOne]

Thanks for your reply Ensar,

The reason I want to secure Oud for my very long term future is that despite being personally agnostic and in the world (ethically) athiest I cannot push away the fact that Oud has become almost holy, sacred to me. No material pleasure gives me greater joy to use myself or share with others.. I need to post more on this in a different subforum.

Oud (strange but fitting how I have always capitalised it) deserves to survive as a blessing to humanity. I did not know it existed for almost all my life and bizzarely now I don't want a day without a drop at hand.

I think I will have to wait until I win the powerball so I can start my dream of Ecofriendly Oud resorts so your offer of help is very generous.

I hope to be able to take you and with his permission, Taha, up on that as in three months-ish myself and little sweet monsters will be parted from mama for six months, either in Mexico or Thailand depending on finances, hoping for Thailand, obviously. I would also love to visit with Adam in BKK, Thailand and sample and buy from him too. Note that I would insist on paying you, Taha and Adam for your time when it would be convienient for you all!

I think I will go both routes you have suggested, though for cultivation, I would demand just a few trees or one that is managed organically with superlative ... dare I say... Ensarian ... Ensarish .. Ensaric (!?!) potential rather than mediochre yield and with either you distilling or one you trust. We can go halfsies. This is of course completely all your fault, you are to blame for this, for releasing that ultimate Oud sampler set that made me fall head over heels with almost everthing that you craft, it seems so please don't give up on distilling after the obtainable wild trees are gone.

Note to Adam & Taha: I will order from you both soon, sure your Ouds are wonderful as well! Adam specifically, bless you for Mai Bo Rai for your obvious care and love for nature, Taha, you are a fine chap for doing the right thing in the Philippines and elsewhere

Now, in all seriousness, and on a personal note, thank you for your damn hard work. You and everyone else, Thomas K. & Adam C. at your company and also those I know nothing about. Many people make their fortunes doing terrible things, wasteful, destructive to the earth and society, but you all help make the world a much better place for so many people, I think after reading so many comments on the forum.

I think a lot of people have ragged you unfairly given these times of disgusting clearcutting and superstitious demand for 'lucky wood' without knowing it's true beauty and increased demand in comparison to your so called golden years with oriscent, but let me tell you that almost every aspect of my life has improved with your little oil drops of clarity, energy, tranquility and happiness now.

Finally, I would like your advise on some buying, may I PM you on skype?

Warm Regards,

Robert.

 

[JK]

@RobertOne

This is actually something I've been working on. We should talk.

 

[RobertOne]

@RobertOne

This is actually something I've been working on. We should talk.

All righty!

PM me and gimme your skype id. We might be limited to text chat for a while as my headset cable was gnawed by... you guessed it... baby girl.

 

[Thomas S.]

Cool ideas, RobertOne!
I have, a while ago, thought about how to start a form of group-funding investment plans. Let´s assume that a few people are willing to invest in Organic agarwood farms. Let´s call it the Organic Foundation. People could buy shares, for example $1.000, $5.000 or $10.000 shares. They would later receive portions of the distilled oils in relation to the amount they have brought into the foundation.
The money would be used to build up the farm in direct cooperation with locals working on the farm. The monetary gain of the marketed (sold) oils would be re-invested in the farm.
This idea is just a rough sketch, and details need to be elaborated. But if we the end consumers - people who love organic oud - were willing to group-fund such a venture, the future of organic oud might look better than it does today.
Just my two cents...

 

[JK]

@RobertOne - I'm trying to figure out how to send you a PM here on Gaharu. What am I missing...? haha

Are you able to shoot me a PM? Do we have to be friends here on Gaharu before we can shoot PM's?

Feeling like a dreadful old man confused by technology at the moment...haha

 

[Ensar Oud]

Now, in all seriousness, and on a personal note, thank you for your damn hard work. You and everyone else, Thomas K. & Adam C. at your company and also those I know nothing about. Many people make their fortunes doing terrible things, wasteful, destructive to the earth and society, but you all help make the world a much better place for so many people, I think after reading so many comments on the forum.

I think a lot of people have ragged you unfairly given these times of disgusting clearcutting and superstitious demand for 'lucky wood' without knowing its true beauty and increased demand in comparison to your so called golden years with oriscent, but let me tell you that almost every aspect of my life has improved with your little oil drops of clarity, energy, tranquility and happiness now.

Finally, I would like your advise on some buying, may I PM you on skype?

Hey Robert,

Sorry it took me a while to get to this. And you're most welcome, my friend. And I really do wish we were making a fortune.... Fortunately, what we do is sustain existence while pursuing this passion of ours. No doubt, we have to be thankful. I am thankful that I have a roof over my head, food in my house, and can afford to pay for my children's daycare fees.

Because this clearly seems to be headed in the oud-forum-for-daddies direction, I'll tell you that my eldest just turned four, my second turns three in a month, and my third turns two a week after that. So you can imagine the diapers, the 'terrible twos' fits and tantrums that I'm still moderating while I try to remind myself that I have people writing me from the world over, requesting information about the stuff that they buy from me.... I have to say, being a dad is not just a full time job.... It's round-the-clock spiritual rigors.... the sort of stuff people acquire sainthood over.... But I digress....

Some folks have speculated that I have made a killing running this business, and I want to set the record straight: It's not what you think.

I've been slaving for two months, and will need to slave for another three or four, just to pay for the cost of two oils.... Oils that are truly a small fortune in and of themselves, but which most people will likely never get to buy, or sample, or even hear about – because there is a 'stigma' associated with such costly oils, ironically by those very people who speculate about the amount of money that I make....

They're for the 'filthy rich' is one theory – they're not as costly as I say they are, is another – they're just a marketing gimmick is a third – whatever the reason, and however well-intentioned the public, the world is not ready for these oils. So you see, my 'fortune' consists in the ability to be an artist, and afford to keep my own art.

I don't drive a car in Singapore; I rely on Uber. Don't own a home here (though I do in Jordan); I rent from a local Chinese landlady who won't even let me hang a piece of calligraphy on the wall.... And yes, most of my disposable cash goes to natural and organic food and cleaning agents, because I simply refuse to eat anything that has been besmirched by toxic chemicals.

I guess this is my after-dawn jet-lagged ramble that you got in reply to your lovely post, Robert. Sorry about that!

We can certainly communicate via Skype, although I prefer the versatility of WhatsApp. My Skype ID is Oriscent.com. Once you add me, I will give you my number, via which you can contact me on other apps when not available on Skype. I have Viber, WhatsApp, and WeChat downloaded.

And you're most welcome for everything on behalf of myself, Kruger and Coburn (lest anyone mistake him for Russian Adam). If you can make it out to Thailand in a few months, I'm sure you can also make it to Singapore where I'd love to host you and yours to a fantastic hawker center where they serve 'high quality' Singaporean street food. Of if you like sushi, we can certainly find something. If you can only make it to Thailand, and will be there six months, I'm certain I'll be making at least a trip in that direction within that sort of time frame – if the Ever Living grant us life.....

Since our concern was speech, and speech impelled us
To purify the dialect of the tribe
And urge the mind to aftersight and foresight,
Let me disclose the gifts reserved for age
To set a crown upon a lifetime's effort....
First, the cold friction of expiring sense
Without enchantment, offering no promise
But bitter airy taste of dying wood
As body and soul begin to fall asunder....

Though I really prefer his earlier stuff....

 

[kesiro]

I've been slaving for two months, and will need to slave for another three or four, just to pay for the cost of two oils.... Oils that are truly a small fortune in and of themselves, but which most people will likely never get to buy, or sample, or even hear about – because there is a 'stigma' associated with such costly oils, ironically by those very people who speculate about the amount of money that I make....

They're for the 'filthy rich' is one theory – they're not as costly as I say they are, is another – they're just a marketing gimmick is a third – whatever the reason, and however well-intentioned the public, the world is not ready for these oils. So you see, my 'fortune' consists in the ability to be an artist, and afford to keep my own art.

I don't drive a car in Singapore; I rely on Uber. Don't own a home here (though I do in Jordan); I rent from a local Chinese landlady who won't even let me hang a piece of calligraphy on the wall.... And yes, most of my disposable cash goes to natural and organic food and cleaning agents, because I simply refuse to eat anything that has been besmirched by toxic chemicals.

I guess this is my after-dawn jet-lagged ramble that you got in reply to your lovely post, Robert. Sorry about that!

We can certainly communicate via Skype, although I prefer the versatility of WhatsApp. My Skype ID is Oriscent.com. Once you add me, I will give you my number, via which you can contact me on other apps when not available on Skype. I have Viber, WhatsApp, and WeChat downloaded.

And you're most welcome for everything on behalf of myself, Kruger and Coburn (lest anyone mistake him for Russian Adam). If you can make it out to Thailand in a few months, I'm sure you can also make it to Singapore where I'd love to host you and yours to a fantastic hawker center where they serve 'high quality' Singaporean street food. Of if you like sushi, we can certainly find something. If you can only make it to Thailand, and will be there six months, I'm certain I'll be making at least a trip in that direction within that sort of time frame – if the Ever Living grant us life.....

I was intrigued by the comments you made about some people’s speculations that what you are doing is making you rich. I can tell you that I never, ever had that perception. Of course, we labor to provide for ourselves and our families. As men, and specifically speaking for myself, we are driven to do this. But… it is extremely easy to see that you are putting your heart and soul into what you do, at great financial and personal expense. There are those, and I would like to include myself in that category, who have much higher standards for ourselves, in terms effort, attention to detail and dedication to excellence, then the industry would normally require. I salute you for that and recognize your efforts. Taha, JK, and Adam, no doubt that applies to you as well.

 

[RobertOne]

Sorry to everyone on this thread.... I just 'got back' yesterday evening.

@Ensar

"I don't drive a car in Singapore; I rely on Uber. Don't own a home here (though I do in Jordan); I rent from a local Chinese landlady who won't even let me hang a piece of calligraphy on the wall.... And yes, most of my disposable cash goes to natural and organic food and cleaning agents, because I simply refuse to eat anything that has been besmirched by toxic chemicals."

Same concerns here.

The kids eat my home-cooked meals 90% of the time, bought with ingredients such as grass-fed beef mostly from whole foods, online organic retailers, farmer's markets and natural grocers, I and wifey buy from there too but also make do with food from Aldi, Homeland, that is reasonably healthy. We shop at target for green cleaning materials and soaps. I think it's revolting that a small bottle of pure water can cost more than coke, for example. Excess non bio-degradable packaging also grinds my gears.

The cost of survival is why I am looking at land in SC, or anywhere with a comparable climate to settle down in, the costs of eating healthy foods are totally out of balance, as seems to be the case in general with this crazy world. Looking at getting 50 > 100 acres of neglected but improveable land with an all year round creek, preferably. Build a very low energy home off the grid there, odor free composting toilets, Tesla solar shingles, powerwall or vanadium flow battery energy storage, triple glazed windows, low energy appliances that last.

Grow our own fruit and nut trees, vegetables, berry bushes and raise a few head of livestock (perhaps also a few Moschus fuscus hand raised from infancy!) using organic no-till / polyface growing methods. Have a mobile butcher come round once a year, let him have all the pricy cuts as payment as well as some other of our produce and keep the equally nutricious rest. That way the soil nutritient depletion will be minimal.

Regarding wise investments... The one thing that no one makes anymore is fertile land.

About the fortune comment... I never meant to imply you were price gouging! It's pretty obvious from your writing that what you do is a labour of love. I do not resent anyone making money except for those by doing so add no value themselves to the world (GS springs to mind) and those who overfish / pollute / clearcut.

@JK

Yes, it's a little inconvienient that the forum here has no private message facility.

Also, apologies for not being clear, skype is one of the most used messaging programs.

Go to https://www.skype.com/en/download-skype/skype-for-computer/ and download it, run through the setup process and choose a name, then add me.

My name on skype is RobertOne Sensate so feel free to add me, though just like everyone else here I am usually busy. It took me three hours just to write this post because a certain little girl has been demanding and getting my attention throughout. Mostly used for offline messages with the odd voice chat.

 

[Ensar Oud]

Great to have you back, BobbyOne!

I thought the poem I posted earlier scared you away... I've noticed nothing is more out of place in today's world than poetry... I hear you on the organics and cleaning agents. Sounds like we have quite a few things in common, not the least of which are the trials of fatherhood and being family men.

Hey, if the ouds help in any capacity with the rough patches, I'd be more than happy to make whatever I have available, in any capacity that suits you.

Best of luck with your family chores, and I pray you're amply rewarded for doing what you do for them!

 

[RobertOne]

This is a X post from SOTD, rather improbability.

@RobertOne I'm wondering if you mean to produce agarwood in general or to make agarwood reach the grade of kyara/Kinam.

I'll start at the beginning with my own theories, cultivated vs wild agarwood. Many believe that cultivated woods are inferior to wild based on resin formation and quality(dynamics of scent profile). My theory is that it's based on time and diversity of offense. The goal of cultivation is the faster production of agarwood. One thing we know from humans is that those most susceptible to assault are the very young and the old. With the inoculation of those young trees we have to ask is there young, likely underdeveloped immune system even capable of mounting a sufficient attack and produce the right amount and quality of correct defense mechanisms; in this case agarwood(sesquiterpenes, monoterpenes, oxygenated compounds, resins, etc). And then we have to ask are we giving that tree enough time to mount that offense before harvesting.

As a simple example let's look at a man boring holes in a tree vs an insect. With a man bored hole there is physical assault and possibly chemical assault if the nail is left in place, that the tree responds to. With an insect there is physical assault and whatever that insect took in with it, i.e. chemical messengers to other insects, pheromones, allomones, parasites, fungus and bacteria that may be on the insect, waste products, etc. all of which the tree may respond to uniquely or in different ways; in this case producing compounds associated with agarwood production. All going back to time and diversity of assault.

Same with the different grades going all the way up to kyara/Kinam. One thing we know is that kyara/Kinam is very old so there has been much diversity of assault and repeated assault all on a tree that has had time to fully mature and be strong enough to mount repeated immune responses over a long time before succumbing. And then there's theory on what happens after the tree dies and falls; fiber breakdown, resin compaction, weathering, etc.

Apologies for being vague, the question was pointed towards KyKi formation and indeed better quality resin formation overall.

I might have an eye to buying one or a couple of acres of inexpensive inland SE Florida (köppen rainforest to monsoon classification) for cultivation in the distant future.

I'm hoping the climate will be similar enough there to permit their growth there to the tune of 75 mature trees per acre, and the rest of perhaps 25 trees per acre will be mixed native species to allow for a degree of biodiversity and mixed use.

Your very detailed answer (thank you) also gives me hope that this might be extremely successful.

A. Sinensis, Crassna et.al is of course not native to the colonies with no natural immunity to much of what is there so it's going to get a very hard time indeed from all the parasitic life there.

Bad for Mr. Tree, good for resin formation and great for me in about 40 years and onwards.

Edit: I think this needs to be moved to the cultivation thread!

 

[RobertOne]

I have come to the conclusion that it might be cheaper, better and much more realistic to hatch this plan closer to home.

I have discovered that two or more acres of very suitable looking scrubland / farmland in the centre of Florida should by no means come to more than 20k and I have seen land greater than 2 acres for much less than half that price.

Factors to take into account will of course be elevation because of climate change and seasonal flooding, soil type, proximity to any pollluting and destructive agribusiness, land taxes, sinkholes and so forth. I am not going into this with rose-tinted spectacles at all.

One bright point is that there will be no roving gangs of aloeswood pirates in the area that I need to worry about stealing my trees, just gun-nut militias, gators and every type of Florida crazy. Ho-hum.

Since moving to the USA I discovered that I will have to start again with my credit rating so this is also a superb chance to have a starter mortgage that I can pay off ahead of schedule to improve it. Two birds, one stone.

Obviously I won't have the knowledge or time to do everything myself so before the land is purchased I will need a soil scientist to assess viability and after clearcutting & mulching a botanist / farmer to advise me on just about everything else.

Those will be fully paid positions.

I have decided that I won't be sharing the cost for any of this with anyone in lieu of a few tolas of hypothetical Oud, it's just far future speculative with too many potential pitfalls to promise results to people with a clear conscience.

Saying that however, any advice from members of this forum would be very much appreciated.

As I have stated before, this will be a very long term venture indeed. I will not be willing to infect (if need be) any trees before they are 40 years old and then not to harvest until the infection is at least 10 years underway.

Think of this post as just a placeholder. I won't have time to do anything on this for many months up to late 2018 but I am determined.

Ensar's, Taha's and Adam's children may be distilling these oils someday.

 

[Ensar Oud]

And if aquilarias won't grow in Florida? Do you have a backup plan?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RobertOne]

And if aquilarias won't grow in Florida? Do you have a backup plan?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Ensar,

This is why I would hire a soil scientist before the purchase. He or she will be able to give me a rough probability on a particular species being able to grow there.

If the terrain is suitable, then in comes a botanist. Once again, if it's greenlighted then I am willing to take that risk as the positive opinion of two consecutive experts is likely to be correct.

Even if the Aqulilaria can't find purchase there 25 of the 100 of the trees that I plant per acre will be native or acclimatised mixed use that will be pest resistant and commercially viable to some degree so it's not going to be a total loss financially. I would obviously plant more of whatever thrives.

Then for the Agarwood I would have to hire you as a consultant in getting me an extremely long term land rental in an already aloeswood producing country.

It would have to be nowhere near neighbours that use roundup, obviously.

However, in any event if the Florida purchase would work I would still want you to oversee the distillation of my wood, so I will have to politely insist that you live at least until 100 years old and in robust good health.

 

[Ensar Oud]

That would be my pleasure Roberto!

 

[Youssef]

Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion. I popped onto Ensar's blog because I wanted to learn a bit more about oud and get excited about what's coming in the mail. However, what I met was agony, when I read that the beautiful Oud Yusuf plantation that I witnessed in Ensar's video was all gone. I was proud when I bought Oud Yusuf for the sole reason that I wanted to support the sustanable cultivation of oud, but when I read that the beautiful plantation was gone it set my mind to the reality of the oud business.

Are there any other plantations like the oud Yusuf plantation left? Or when the farmer cut down all his trees he took the sustainable future of oud with him?

 

[Oudamberlove]

Sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion. I popped onto Ensar's blog because I wanted to learn a bit more about oud and get excited about what's coming in the mail. However, what I met was agony, when I read that the beautiful Oud Yusuf plantation that I witnessed in Ensar's video was all gone. I was proud when I bought Oud Yusuf for the sole reason that I wanted to support the sustanable cultivation of oud, but when I read that the beautiful plantation was gone it set my mind to the reality of the oud business.

Are there any other plantations like the oud Yusuf plantation left? Or when the farmer cut down all his trees he took the sustainable future of oud with him?

I believe there is hope....as long as plantations keep planting (which they do), but more importantly, let the trees grow old and mature. It seems the future rests in the hands of the growers today.