GCMS results

[Ensar Oud]

noted. do you have any input @Ensar in regards to using ethanol (perfumers alcohol or otherwise pure grain alcohol at 95%) vs. polysorbate 20 solubilizer?

I have very little experience with both, being a mortal foe to all chemicals, whether naturally derived or otherwise. A quick google of Polysorbate-20 gave the following result:

"Is polysorbate-20 safe to use?"
Other concerns with polysorbate-20 are that it resulted in developmental and reproductive toxicity in animal studies, but high doses were administered before these results were observed. Moderate doses are also linked with skin irritation.

My recommendation is to use organic undenatured alcohol, to avoid the chemicals they put in perfumer's alcohol. I realize this may not be available everywhere and some people (including me) are thus forced to resort to denatured (a.k.a. perfumer's) alcohol. But where there's a will, there's a way…

 

[RobertOne]

I have very little experience with both, being a mortal foe to all chemicals, whether naturally derived or otherwise. A quick google of Polysorbate-20 gave the following result:

"Is polysorbate-20 safe to use?"
Other concerns with polysorbate-20 are that it resulted in developmental and reproductive toxicity in animal studies, but high doses were administered before these results were observed. Moderate doses are also linked with skin irritation.

My recommendation is to use organic undenatured alcohol, to avoid the chemicals they put in perfumer's alcohol. I realize this may not be available everywhere and some people (including me) are thus forced to resort to denatured (a.k.a. perfumer's) alcohol. But where there's a will, there's a way…

I suggest anyone macerating or dissolving perfume ingredients hitting your local US of A boozeria and buying a bottle of 96% ethanol everclear.

It's as pure as humanly possible for domestic uses. Additionally, you can disinfect with it, use it to remove lots of inkmarks and keep a sealed tumbler of it in your bathroom for dunking your gillette in post shave to keep it sharp more than three times as long.

 

[Rasoul S]

I suggest anyone macerating or dissolving perfume ingredients hitting your local US of A boozeria and buying a bottle of 96% ethanol everclear.

It's as pure as humanly possible for domestic uses. Additionally, you can disinfect with it, use it to remove lots of inkmarks and keep a sealed tumbler of it in your bathroom for dunking your gillette in post shave to keep it sharp more than three times as long.

up north no such thing available cause our government thinks you may over indulge so they put bitrex in it and denature it. nothing over 120 proof.

 

[Dorje]

I never tried Ensar's resin, but I got a kick out of him executing the idea after me mocking it, and I am sure his blows Eden Botanicals out of the water. I did however try to troll him pretty hard as a response. I hope someone out there enjoyed the resin, Rasoul is the only one I know of that mentions actually using it, but no reviews. I don't burn the wood, I have enough interest accruing as it is

Butane will be a night and day difference vs ethanol extraction... not comparable at all IME.

 

[Tuff]

Butane will be a night and day difference vs ethanol extraction... not comparable at all IME.

Here is a good video from youtube showing a butane extraction:

There is certainly no distillation rig involved as with ethanol, no technique. It's a brute force hack, the only variable is the material used.

 

[Oudicated]

Here is a good video from youtube showing a butane extraction:

There is certainly no distillation rig involved as with ethanol, no technique. It's a brute force hack, the only variable is the material used.

This method is “ghetto style”, dangerous and not recommended. If you are going to do butane extraction, a closed loop system using pure N-tane is the way to go. There are definitely many variables when it comes to proper butane extraction.

 

[Dorje]

There is certainly no distillation rig involved as with ethanol, no technique. It's a brute force hack, the only variable is the material used.

That is NOT a good video, and there are many variables. As Oudicated said, this is a total ghetto setup.

The point is, the results are going to be night and day different using ethanol vs butane, and butane will be far superior but won't extract as much so yield may be too low to bother with. But, what it extracts will be far more desirable vs ethanol as well.

 

[Tuff]

That is NOT a good video, and there are many variables. As Oudicated said, this is a total ghetto setup.

The point is, the results are going to be night and day different using ethanol vs butane, and butane will be far superior but won't extract as much so yield may be too low to bother with. But, what it extracts will be far more desirable vs ethanol as well.

I would love to check out this improved extraction butane Oud. Do you have a link to it on a website for sale?

 

[Tuff]

This method is “ghetto style”, dangerous and not recommended. If you are going to do butane extraction, a closed loop system using pure N-tane is the way to go. There are definitely many variables when it comes to proper butane extraction.

Again, I would love to check out this improved extraction butane Oud. Do you have a link to it on a website for sale?

 

[Ensar Oud]

The question is not one of 'variables' in one extraction method vs another. Even if butane extraction had a thousand variables, it wouldn't be comparable to distillation. And vice versa. It's like comparing painting to sculpture. They're different things altogether.

I've worked with hundreds of different extracts and have yet to encounter a butane extract of anything. I'd be very curious to check it out if anyone has a reference where it's available. I'm open to all types of extracts and will not say any one particular method of extraction is superior to another. I've seen sandalwood CO2s way back that I'd take gallons of today if I could only access them. Yet I prefer distilled sandalwood oil to CO2 extracted sandalwood. The CO2 is unique enough though to warrant trying it. Likewise with sandalwood absolute. Nothing like distilled sandalwood oil, but unique enough to appreciate for what it offers.

I will say that if we didn't have ethanol extracted absolutes (which are in fact hexane-extracted and then ethanol 'bathed') there would be no perfumery as we know it. Absolutes are the crux and heart of modern perfumery.

It also bears repeating that different types of extracts have different names:

'Rose Otto' refers to distilled rose essential oil. Rose 'absolute' is a COMPLETELY different animal. As is rose CO2. As is everything else.

'Neroli' refers to distilled orange blossoms. Solvent extracted 'orange flower absolute' is never referred to as 'neroli'.

I don't know why we have so much difficulty understanding that 'Oud' refers to DISTILLED agarwood oil. Any other type of extract was never meant to be 'oud' as we know it and is a completely different thing. Think grape juice, wine and vinegar. They all come from the same thing, but they're TOTALLY different things. That's how much oud oil relates to agarwood CO2 (or butane, or any other solvent) or an agarwood ethanol extract.

When we talk about the 'art' of distillation. We're talking about distilling oud oil. Once we go into the 'variables' of a butane or a hexane or a CO2 or a whatever set-up, we're not talking about the same art anymore. Or the same product.

Being an agarwood 'extract' of some sort no more makes KZ85 an oud oil than it makes it labdanum. If it's not distilled agarwood oil, it's NOT OUD. It's not wine; it's vinegar; or grappa; or grape juice; or something else. Of course, one could take orange flower concrete and say it's neroli. It isn't.

 

[Rasoul S]

The question is not one of 'variables' in one extraction method vs another. Even if butane extraction had a thousand variables, it wouldn't be comparable to distillation. And vice versa. It's like comparing painting to sculpture. They're different things altogether.

I've worked with hundreds of different extracts and have yet to encounter a butane extract of anything. I'd be very curious to check it out if anyone has a reference where it's available. I'm open to all types of extracts and will not say any one particular method of extraction is superior to another. I've seen sandalwood CO2s way back that I'd take gallons of today if I could only access them. Yet I prefer distilled sandalwood oil to CO2 extracted sandalwood. The CO2 is unique enough though to warrant trying it. Likewise with sandalwood absolute. Nothing like distilled sandalwood oil, but unique enough to appreciate for what it offers.

I will say that if we didn't have ethanol extracted absolutes (which are in fact hexane-extracted and then ethanol 'bathed') there would be no perfumery as we know it. Absolutes are the crux and heart of modern perfumery.

It also bears repeating that different types of extracts have different names:

'Rose Otto' refers to distilled rose essential oil. Rose 'absolute' is a COMPLETELY different animal. As is rose CO2. As is everything else.

'Neroli' refers to distilled orange blossoms. Solvent extracted 'orange flower absolute' is never referred to as 'neroli'.

I don't know why we have so much difficulty understanding that 'Oud' refers to DISTILLED agarwood oil. Any other type of extract was never meant to be 'oud' as we know it and is a completely different thing. Think grape juice, wine and vinegar. They all come from the same thing, but they're TOTALLY different things. That's how much oud oil relates to agarwood CO2 (or butane, or any other solvent) or an agarwood ethanol extract.

When we talk about the 'art' of distillation. We're talking about distilling oud oil. Once we go into the 'variables' of a butane or a hexane or a CO2 or a whatever set-up, we're not talking about the same art anymore. Or the same product.

Being an agarwood 'extract' of some sort no more makes KZ85 an oud oil than it makes it labdanum. If it's not distilled agarwood oil, it's NOT OUD. It's not wine; it's vinegar; or grappa; or grape juice; or something else. Of course, one could take orange flower concrete and say it's neroli. It isn't.

very well explained. it doesnt take away from its beauty or place but it is correct that we shouldn't confuse the results of extracts vs distillation and name them accordingly.

 

[Dorje]

I would love to check out this improved extraction butane Oud. Do you have a link to it on a website for sale?

I don't make agarwood products. However, I have helped others use various different methods for extracting desirable substances from plant matter so I'm pretty familiar with the differences in butane vs ethanol vs CO2, etc... just not in the context of agarwood.

I'm not sure why you seem to take my comments as a challenge or insult, I am just trying to be helpful. Seeing as you have made an ethanol based extraction I thought butane might be a possibility and I'd encourage you to try it. IME with other things, it produces a far different and possibly superior result as it does the best job of capturing terpenes without lots of other stuff, and makes for a surprisingly accurate rendition of the starting material in terms of smell. In fact, sometimes even better than the starting material as it is purified in some ways.

If you do try it, preparation of the starting material is key, and yield/efficiency is massively influenced by the even distribution of material so the butane does not channel. I'd try it with less valuable substances first to get a handle on it. The size of grind and how densely packed the starting material is in the extraction device is by far the most important part and is not super easy to get right. Ideal density may be much higher than you might think. Now that I think about it, it's a lot like making espresso, where the grind, density and uniformity of the filter bed (coffee) are key to getting good results. In any case, if you do get channeling in the filter media it won't work, both for espresso or butane extraction.