Lotus Oud

#1
Inspired by Ensar's recent impressions of his Khao Yai distillation, I've been considering blending Lotus oils with an Oud oil. I also know that Ensar did this with Pink Papua (a blend of Blue Brunei and Pink Lotus, correct me if I'm wrong).

As an experiment, I took a tiny amount of Ensar's Oud Shuayb (unreleased oil from the same jungle as Oud Mostafa). Its character and presence is very different from the powerful Mostafa, and yet it has a strength and stability that felt to be the perfect balance with which to approach a blend. On my other wrist, I put a few dabs of Christopher's White Lotus Attar and Blue Lotus Attar. I noticed that the Lotuses mix quite nicely together. I rub my wrists together gently, mixing Oud Shuayb and the Lotus oils.

The high range of lotus is the most noticeable at first. The highest top notes I've ever encountered. But it is not too long before the lotuses come back down to a ground of Shuayb--a steady radiance of Indian Oud with a beautifully sustained and balanced barnyard note and pleasant woodiness, now circulating with the exalting notes of Lotus.

I used Lotus Attars, and so the sandalwood is also quite present. I would like to repeat the experiment with absolutes. However, as I continue to smell, the oils mingle quite nicely together. A single breath shifting between quite a range of notes, each one showing its character before sinking back into a mysterious cohesion of fragrance.

More Oud and Lotus Absolutes. I would like to use pink, white, and blue as an experiment. But the ground of Oud needs to be quite present, because while the lotus is quite a subtle fragrance, it has a strange power that emerges when blended.

Feel free to share thoughts or advice!
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#2
That's a brilliant idea about using Oud Shuayb in a blend, Oudiferous! Thanks for thinking to share that; I'll be sure to try it as soon as I'm back in Jordan. Might even use some blue lotus absolute I got in Thailand, and a drop or two of Khao Yai just for the uncanny energy and subtle presence of this unearthly essence (for I cannot call it an 'oil'... it is like bottled sky... so much more delicate and nuanced and transparent than a blunt oud, in the common sense of the term). It has the same 'strange power' you so discerningly identified in the lotus essences. They are soft, subtle beings, but when introduced to a blend, they work their magic to transmute everything else to sheer magnificence.

Now sandalwood would definitely have to be present in this, but I'm thinking Australian rather than Mysore. A touch of frankincense, some nutmeg, a drop of rose, and some jasmine, just to support and complement the blue lotus. Maybe even some blue cypress from Australia?

These are just ideas off the top of my head. When I actually blend them I'll be able to tell what works, what doesn't.

Please keep sharing whatever findings you come up with as you experience blending oud with blue lotus. I'm very interested to know.
 
#3
Ensar, I agree with your thoughts here! Definitely Australian rather than Mysore Sandalwood, although the ratio of Sandalwood is not clear to me yet. I feel confident that a drop of rose and some jasmine would be a beautiful complement to the lotus. I am not sure about frankincense or nutmeg, but perhaps it would work. Rose and jasmine feel perfect. I am already dreaming of it.

I feel that blending anything with lotus is a very delicate process, given the delicate and fragile nature of the lotus fragrance. For a while, I had thoughts of a drop of Saffron to bring more sharpness to the fragrance, but I also have fears that it will "cut" into the lotus notes too much. But it might work!

In my vision, the prominent play of notes should be Oud Shuayb with a very active lotus complement. The blend on my wrist felt very alive, the lotus felt to harmonize with Shuayb so nicely, as if the oils themselves were enjoying their first meeting, and participating in a magical creation.

Let me know how your experimentation goes. Maybe we will end up composing an incredible fragrance!
 
#4
Why Australian Sandalwood and not Mysore in the mix? from what I read from everyone that have tried it all complained about the inferiority of the Australian species. Are there any specific notes intrinsic to the Australian Sandalwood that you are looking for? And isn't the addition of Jasmine and Rose is kind of redundant since the rose has a lot of the Jasmine notes? Judging by the Pink Papua I would like to recommend more notes with masculinity because the Lotus is a very feminine fragrant that can somehow be overpowering unless tamed with a grounding element.
 
#5
Masstika, my intention is for the Oud to ground the lotus notes. I am looking for a yin-yang dynamic here. I do feel that adding a spice could be useful, such as Ensar's nutmeg suggestion. Also, as I continued to envision the fragrance, I started to wonder if more rose and no jasmine would be better.

I'll let Ensar answer to the Australian rather than Mysore.
 
#6
Yeah. I, too, struggle to imagine why anyone would choose, with such certainty, to use a new (steam distilled) Aussie sandalwood, vs. a good (hydro-distilled, if possible) Mysore sandalwood oil, if given the choice.
At the very least; if no Mysore/Indian sandalwood was available, I'd think shooting for a Santalum album (such as the currently-available Sri Lankan oil) would be a reasonable alternative to the Indian stuff.
(though; I don't mean to imply that we all need to have the same tastes!)

Oudiferous; why "definitely" an Australian sandalwood oil? There must be something specific to its profile that has you so sure about it.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#7
Mysore is old fashioned. And how anyone can say the Australian 'species' of sandalwood is inferior to the Indian is beyond my comprehension. It's like saying the Indian tiger is inferior to the African one. Or Mongolians are inferior to Native Americans. :S

Rather, on the perfumer's palette they are distinct ingredients with unique applications and very different roles that they play in a blend. They're neither competitors nor foes.

Now the main reason I'd go Aussie is because of its place on the scale of notes. It's higher up and closer to the heart notes than Mysore, which is a proper base note. Given its diffusive power to climb up toward the heart accord, the Aussie works well as a 'bridge' between the two phases of the scent's evolution, merging heart and base; especially if the heart is a flower accord. Mysore is creamy-woody, Aussie is floral (if you get the right one!). Mysore is attar; Aussie is parfum. :)

To me rose and jasmine are antagonists, and I (almost) never put the two of them together in the same perfume. But I'm sure that's just me. Now the reason I wanted the rose here is because it might add 'dimensionality' to the lotus accord; but one would have to be extremely cautious about which type of rose to employ here. Something like Indonesian white rose comes to mind; or perhaps Chinese tea rose? Whereas the jasmine would only add flow and spontaneity to the coexistence of everything else in the blend; it'd bind everything together as if by magic and transmute everything into one.

Thanks for your tip on Pink Papua, masstika. I think of perfume as essentially beautiful, and feminine. 'Masculine' scents don't really do anything for me, as I think it's an unnatural value of secular culture, to be 'manly' and wear 'manly scents'. Can one say rose is feminine? It was beloved by the Prophet (alayhis salatu was salam) and one of his favorite perfumes.

Oudiferous, I'm not sure about the saffron. It's orange, and if we tried to visualize the scent from a perspective of color alone, it would clash with the blue that is at the heart of the fragrance here – unless, as in the heart of the blue lotus flower itself, you see this as the bud of the flower, which is a bright yellow?
 
#8
My original thoughts were that I did not want to have any sandalwood at all. I did not feel desirous of that creamy Mysore flavor in this blend. I also did not want to make the blend with a sandalwood base, but would prefer for the Oud to hold and embody the fragrance more. However, I liked Ensar's suggestion of using Australian sandalwood.

Ensar, I agree about the Saffron. It is too orange for the cool and deep blue that I am seeing. I don't want to obstruct that purity. I have never smelled Indonesian white rose or Chinese tea rose, but they sound like they would be perfect for the blend, and would preserve the delicacy of the lotus notes.

Ensar, what about a hint of a Cambodi?
 
#9
As we are talking here about ingredients and mixes I would like to to mention a quote from Profumo, natural perfumer, that I think is quite appropriate here and that I think we need to keep in mind:

"Making perfumes that smell like something for 3 minutes, then the smell changes into something else , then after 10 minutes it becomes something else, then after 20 minutes then after one hour you get only the end smell of some single molecule like Calone, this is not blending, this is a construction game that any kid can do, but this is the standard of composing perfumes today. This happens for the simple reason that modern perfumes have been stripped of all naturals, the only substances that can give a cohesion to the single chemical molecules and bridge them into a decent perfume".

Ensar, it's very hard to believe you've said "'Masculine' scents don't really do anything for me"...! what with all your top notch Indian Oils, surely you can't say those are feminine oils :) Mostafa, Khidr...etc. And I am not sure what's your reasoning behind your statement that "it's an unnatural value of secular culture, to be 'manly' and wear 'manly scents' ?

IMHO, the Rose has always been an exception for the Prophets and other holly and Mystic persons. I wear it and have a good collection of Rose Otto's and Abs. but then again I though maybe I have a weird taste (which is what my other male friends think). I understand from Trygve that there is a rose that grows in Oman and that has a very tender scent but it is used mainly for pastry.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#10
@Oudiferous: I can't really picture a Cambodi Cambodi, though a spicy Thai might work. If I were to choose, I'd limit my oud options to three: Shuayb, Oud Royale No 2, Khao Yai. These are the only 'blue' oils I can think of.

@Masstika: The quote from Profumo seems to advocate using natural ingredients in perfume blending as opposed to synthetics. I agree with Profumo, however the quote is confusing here as all the ingredients we're discussing are 100% natural. Natural perfumes 'evolve'. One note leads to another, which is why we speak of the 'opening note' and the 'next stage' and the 'heart phase' and the 'dry down' and the 'ending note'. If he's implying that perfumes should be one coherent unity of notes that do not change, I would find that very strange, as that is precisely a characteristic of the synthetics he is advocating against. They contribute only linearity to a perfume creation, as opposed to layeredness & complexity.

By 'masculine scents' I meant blends, perfumes or colognes that are intentionally put together to have a 'manly' smell. I find that unnatural as perfumery is an enchanting art employing among the most delicate and beautiful essences, like boronia, tuberose, jasmine, rose, frangipani, lotus, etc. To intentionally avoid flowers so as to have a 'manly' smelling perfume is, to me, a departure from the art of perfumery.

I was referring to things that are marketed like this, "Fresh. Spirited. Adventurous. A spirited scent that captures man's desire for freedom to escape beyond the boundaries of everyday life. As individual and adventurous as the man who wears it."
 
#11
Masstika, I think Ensar was referring to the common Western notion of "manliness", i.e., that a man should not partake in anything that is seemingly feminine. If we take the standard American male as our prototype and handed them a bottle of fine rose oil, they will mostly likely never wear it. In India (and the East altogether) there is more of an integration with the feminine. This is even signified in clothing styles. Men in India wear colorful and decorative clothing as a standard. Such clothing is easily seen as being too feminine to the Western eye (in average terms).

I have always enjoyed fragrances of masculine and feminine nature. Women have even remarked to me about how surprised they are to meet a man who is 1.) so much into fragrance and 2.) not afraid to wear feminine fragrances. Some women have been very surprised that I would wear such scents, given that they were so clearly feminine.

There is certainly a clear distinction that can be made with any fragrance, regarding its male or female character, or its blend of both. There is something to love and appreciate about a robust Indian Oud, just as there is much to love about a delicate rose or lotus oil.

Thank you for the quote from Profumo!

Ensar, Royale could work quite nicely, but maybe Khao Yai would be the perfect Oud-y complement.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#12
From what I understand, the great 'noses' don't set out to make a 'feminine' or 'masculine' perfume as is the case with designer frags. Rather, they take the finest ingredients and create accords that will give life to new scents that didn't exist before. Each aromatic can sparkle if placed carefully in an accord. The key is to create contrast without cacophony; synergy without monotony; the scent is to become a coherent unity of notes that are all harmoniously one. I'd say 'symphony' except that in my case, as in a piano concerto where everything follows the piano's tune, each orchestration revolves around a specific oud oil; so concerto would be more appropriate.

Now I don't come anywhere near the 'noses' I refer to above, but what I've learned from them is to create dynamism in a perfume by contrasting starkly different, even 'opposite' notes. To illustrate this I'll venture to disclose that in the case of Pink Papua, the exuberant cloying floral (pink lotus) is supported by the most animalic, barnyard & ferile Hindi I've ever smelled: Oud Adam. There are equal amounts of Oud Adam and Blue Brunei in Pink Papua! But the aquatic, lotus-like temperament of the Brunei serves as a mediator between the opposing notes of cloying floralicious lotus and extreme fecalicious Hindi.
 
#13
Thanks Ensar and Oudiferous for the clarification regarding the Masculine and feminine aspect of perfumery, culture olfactory predispositions and marketing. I do remember seeing a very rugged looking Bashtun Pilgrims in one of the Arabian Oud store in SA and they were all trying and smelling the Rose Taif, swooning and saying accolades and raves about it that was almost unreal to see this bunch of very tough guys yet enjoying something so delicate unabashedly, facial musceles relaxed, manners and guards dropped :) This scene will be hardpressed to repeat here in the western hemisphere:) I don't pertain to speak for Profumo but to put what I quoted from Profumo in context here s the entry which was in response to a question I posed :"Dear Masstika, I added the Laos Oud to the Bengali one. It is exactly as you said, a perfumistas is not a machine to analyse the ingredients, the game would be tedious. Analysing stands in the way of feeling. The only ingredient that counts here is Oud, the others should be invisible. The Sandal wood in this number too is too obvious, I shall diminish it.
The blending consists in making a new smell with some already existent ones, in which they are all so well balanced that none stands out on its own. It is a team work where every individual is participating in the new entity that is the team. To me a good perfume is not one where the ingredients come up one after the other, but where a unique smell having a real character and cohesion evolutes over time changing but remaining itself, keeping its own personality and integrity.
Exactly like perfumes blended by nature. the smell of Lavender or Tuberose change when you smell them straight away or after 10 minutes or one hour or 10 hours, but they are distinctly and unmistakably Lavender and Tuberose all the time.
Making perfumes that smell like something for 3 minutes, then the smell changes into something else , then after 10 minutes it becomes something else, then after 20 minutes then after one hour you get only the end smell of some single molecule like Calone, this is not blending, this is a construction game that any kid can do, but this is the standard of composing perfumes today. This happens for the simple reason that modern perfumes have been stripped of all naturals, the only substances that can give a cohesion to the single chemical molecules and bridge them into a decent perfume.
Luca Turin had the idea that a good perfume needs the synthetic as a skeleton and the naturals as the flesh to enrich it and give it complexity. My idea is the opposite, the naturals in modern perfumes, mixed natural and synthetics are the skeleton. The synthetics provide the hedonistic, fantastic, exaggerated dimension. Like synthetic peach or strawberry in the icecreams. After experiencing the chemical peach and strawberry children do not want the natural ones who have less taste. They are not as hedonistic, fantastic and exaggerated.
The Oud Caravan perfume even more than any other of my perfume should follow this philosophy of blending because the aim here is not to make a "new smell not existing before" blended as by nature but to make an Oud blended as by nature where all ingredients loose themselves happily becoming Oud themselves."
Very clever Ensar, the mix of Adam Oud in there and having The Blue Bruni bridge over to the lotus. This might sound strange but it is like a beautiful bespoke tailored suite. How common is that mixing Hindi and Borneo Ouds?
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#14
I've only mixed Borneo with Hindi once, in the Pink Papua. Though I added a tad of Oud Nuh to the Elixir to test my theory that it was Bornean malaccensis that was somehow imported to Assam. Clearly, as the unfailing noses of our reviewers picked up, it turns out Oud Nuh is no Borneo! Yet I could've sworn it was Indonesian oud miraculously found in Meghalaya somehow; it just never struck me as a true Hindi.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#16
Blue Kalbar

Yes, the first draft is done, and I've already sent samples out along with some orders. In anticipation of feedback and reviews... :S

I want to thank you, Oudiferous, for suggesting this idea. I think the Oud Shuayb / Blue Lotus accord was nothing short of brilliant. The Aussie sandalwood I envisioned worked very well. Because I wanted to keep the blend as Oriental as possible, I limited myself almost exclusively to ingredients originating in the Far East. Australian sandalwood, Blue Lotus absolute from Thailand, Indonesian white rose, and a touch of Indonesian nutmeg, as I'd initially planned.

Given my tendency to contrast opposites rather than blend like with like, I couldn't bring myself to pair up Khao Yai with the blue lotus. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't because one of my favorite exercises is to wear the finished perfume on one arm with Khao Yai No 1 on the other, and sniff back and forth. It's mindboggling to see how similar Khao Yai is to the perfume; it displays the same spicy top note with a blue-green fruity floral tonality that is almost aquatic & airy as the ethereal and ever soft blue lotus flower.

What I did instead is graft the buttery-earthy tenderness of the blue lotus atop the sharp, diffusive, powdery-woody base of Kyara de Kalbar. The powdery character of K de Kalbar permeates the entire composition, reaching all the way up to the top notes adding an agarwoody transcendence to the orchestration.

Now in order to transmute everything into a velvety, aquatic concierto of notes in harmony with the watery substance of lotus, I chose ambergris as the exalting fixative for this blend instead of deer musk, which would have otherwise been my optimal choice. The lotus is a scent that emerges from a body of water so I couldn't think of a more suitable fixative for this blend than ambergris.

Everything is soft and ethereal despite the mighty presence of Oud Shuayb and Kyara de Kalbar, to my astonishment and delight. Overall, I am very pleased with this first attempt, which I'm calling Blue Kalbar No 1. Any subsequent versions I may be inspired to put together will be numbered accordingly.

Thanks again, Oudiferous!
 
#18
Is that Kalbar as in Queensland, Australia or in Indonesia or is this an Arabic word please?
By Blue Lotus do you mean Blue Waterlily? Not sure that lotus grows in blue.
Sounds unique and am prepared to be amazed.
 
#20
How different is Pink papua from Blue Kalbar; they both seem (on the surface) to share ingredients but of course the Oud is different? Is the difference great that they stand alone or are similar in many ways that they are read as different iteration of a common theme?