Oud Biz: Real Talk

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#81
@Ensar This post might be the best and most straightforward thing you've written in ages. Thank you!
Thanks! :)

It is not impossible to untrap oil hardened as oleoresin inside the wood if you know how to distill it.
I think this point needs clarifying. Do you mean untrap oil that is within highly resinated oleoresin? i.e the resin formation is obstructing oil mobility, and technique facilitates higher mobility and yield? Or are you actually suggesting distilling oil from resin? i.e. reforming oil from resin? I'd disagree with the second suggestion.
I was suggesting distilling the oil that's trapped inside thickened oleoresin. Others have claimed to 'convert' resin into oil in order to boost yield, but in my view that's tantamount to cutting the oil, in this case with liquefied resin. I maintain that if the 'conversion' theory is indeed true, the resin would act as a filler to merely stretch the amount of oil obtained; nothing more. Resin needs to be heated for its true olfactory properties to be experienced, and it cannot be worn on the skin the way essential oil is (try rubbing some super king chips on your skin and see how far you get). Although the essential oil that is trapped within resin pockets is much more 'resinous' than essential oil obtained from white wood, given the maturity and grade of that oil.

Seldom do you come across a true incense-grade oil.
My own answer to that is one word: Ketsani.
My point exactly! :)
 
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Alkhadra

Guest
#82
I maintain that if the 'conversion' theory is indeed true, the resin would act as a filler to merely stretch the amount of oil obtained; nothing more.
You said it was true in the past. What made you skeptical all of a sudden? :confused:
 
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#83
I was suggesting distilling the oil that's trapped inside thickened oleoresin. Others have claimed to 'convert' resin into oil in order to boost yield, but in my view that's tantamount to cutting the oil, in this case with liquefied resin. I maintain that if the 'conversion' theory is indeed true, the resin would act as a filler to merely stretch the amount of oil obtained; nothing more. Resin needs to be heated for its true olfactory properties to be experienced, and it cannot be worn on the skin the way essential oil is (try rubbing some super king chips on your skin and see how far you get). Although the essential oil that is trapped within resin pockets is much more 'resinous' than essential oil obtained from white wood, given the maturity and grade of that oil.
We agree completely then :)

Only as @Alkhadra says
You said it was true in the past. What made you skeptical all of a sudden? :confused:
It seems the idea of resin to oil originated from something you had said.

You can contextualize it another way. Say I told you an oil was a pure kinam distillation. Then you found out it was shavings instead of solid chunks. Would it be any less kinam than if it were chunks? (Kinam shavings go for $500,000 a kilogram today.)
I have a question regarding the pricing on shavings.
What dictates price? What is the market for them? Obviously artisan distillers,
and I'm pretty sure incense makers,
although I believe they also use spent distillation feedstock as well, so we're probably talking about top incense makers?
Who else buys shavings?
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#84
It seems the idea of resin to oil originated from something you had said.
I think you must have me mistaken for someone else... I've never practiced resin-to-oil 'conversion' or advocated it. Anyone who's ever run a distillation knows that getting 'as much as possible' out of the wood only decreases the quality of the oil, and doesn't improve it in any way. The clearest proof of that is CO2 extraction, where exactly the same process is carried out without any 'techniques' and everything the wood has to offer is sucked out clean, resulting in a characterless paste that doesn't even hold a candle to distilled oud oil. Taking the same molecules that are present in this paste and somehow incorporating them into the oil doesn't give you a better product. Rather, it is the opposite process that is known to result in a superior product. Selecting only the most fragrant fractions in the ratios that they exist in nature as will yield to the most gentle heat – in effect, a yield 'reducing' technique – this is what I practice. Quite the diametrical opposite of what you suggest! :)

I have a question regarding the pricing on shavings. What dictates price? What is the market for them? Obviously artisan distillers, and I'm pretty sure incense makers, although I believe they also use spent distillation feedstock as well, so we're probably talking about top incense makers? Who else buys shavings?
I have a question regarding artisan distillers. Where are they? Do you know of any, apart from maybe 2 or 3 people? Such a creature exists only in the mind of the online consumer. Go back and read @Rasoul S's post about distillation feedstock, and what most oils are made from, and you will quickly see that there's no such thing as an 'artisan distiller' – save if you're willing to loosely apply the term to anyone ordering oil via Facebook and asking about whether it will be cooked in 'copper or steel' and soaked in 'ceramic or clay' and in 'spring or well' water.... I personally haven't gotten to that point yet. To me, the people looking to track down my distillers via Twitter or Instagram are not 'artisan distillers'. They're anything but, actually.

Short answer: The market for shavings is the Chinese incense market. They dictate the price. Compare the buying power of a China market incense manufacturer to someone like Russian Adam or yours truly, and you quickly begin to realize there's not much of a slice for us in the shavings market, unless we're backed by a community of oud connoisseurs that is unfragmented by deceit and propaganda platforms that are run by 'artisan distillers' from their couches in London and Georgia....
 
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Alkhadra

Guest
#85
I think you must have me mistaken for someone else... I've never practiced resin-to-oil 'conversion' or advocated it.
In the following image bellow, one can argue that you weren't advocating it, rather you were just suggesting that it is in fact possible to perform.

ENsar12.PNG

Regardless, here is where you said that you have practiced it. You even specifically mentioned that you've converted the entire resin content to oil.

resin-to-oil.PNG

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with using such practice to achieve a certain end result. But it is as you've said, they're only smelling the "attar" version.

Oh, to anyone who's interested to read more about that discussion, you can find it here: https://gaharu.com/index.php?threads/let-oleoresin-talk-lot-project.377/page-4
 
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Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#86
In the following image below, one can argue that you weren't advocating it, rather you were just suggesting that it is, in fact, possible to perform.

Regardless, here is where you said that you have practiced it. You even specifically mentioned that you've converted the entire resin content to oil.
Someone just scored an A+ for attentiveness in class and familiarity with the subject matter. I am genuinely impressed that you can quote me like that and are able to provide exact references for any given statement I may have made in the past. But your interpretation is a bit out of context here. Having done something once or twice hardly qualifies as 'practicing' it as a matter of principle.

I must clarify that the two statements you quote are in reference to two distinct processes. And that I retracted my endorsement of the one – as you correctly pointed out – due to the simple lack of having witnessed it. I merely repeated what I'd heard from others regarding the widely rumored 'yield-boosting' technique. I've since had an earth-shattering reminder that things are seldom as they seem in this craft, and it is safer to err on the side of caution and say you have no direct experience of any given process than to run the risk of propagating something that may or may not be as you claim.

The technique referenced in your second screenshot pertains to a completely different process, carried out not for the sake of boosting yield but rather to 'resinify' less resinous oils, such as the ones mentioned. You correctly point out that this yields an 'attar' version of a high-grade incense-heavy profile rather than a pure super caliber oil (e.g. Aroha Kyaku vs Qi Nam Khmer).

If given the chance, I would urge you in your own quest to experiment for yourself. See what suits your taste best and then go from there. Don't just do what someone else does for the sake of emulating anyone. Rather, find your own groove and be unique. Talk to your market. There are millions of oud-thirsty souls in Saudi Arabia and they're ready for discourse. Listen to them and connect with them, and forget about the online forums.
 
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Rasoul S

Well-Known Member
#87
I was thinking of shifting gears. Mods pls let me know if I should start a new thread or is ok here...

My thinking is what would our resident distillers like us to unlearn and re-learn. What do you see from us collectively that may be frustrating to witness and you wish it could be changed? God knows if given the opportunity and audience I would go 90 pages if I was asked the same thing in regards to wine or tea.

Open mic. Ball in your court. Let’s have some edutainment.
 
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Alkhadra

Guest
#88
Someone just scored an A+ for attentiveness in class and familiarity with the subject matter. I am genuinely impressed that you can quote me like that and are able to provide exact references for any given statement I may have made in the past.
Haha attentiveness and alertness? :D Habibi this is a forum, it ain't impressive to directly quote anyone. There's a search bar, and the whole Oleoresin topic is something everyone is familiar with until we got sick to our stomachs from hearing the same jibberish again and again.

But your interpretation is a bit out of context here. Having done something once or twice hardly qualifies as 'practicing' it as a matter of principle.
If I asked you, "dear Ensar, have you ever practiced converting resin to oil?" You're answer would and should be "Yes, once or twice".

The technique referenced in your second screenshot pertains to a completely different process, carried out not for the sake of boosting yield but rather to 'resinify' less resinous oils, such as the ones mentioned. You correctly point out that this yields an 'attar' version of a high-grade incense-heavy profile rather than a pure super caliber oil (e.g. Aroha Kyaku vs Qi Nam Khmer).
Regardless, you made less resinous oils more resinous, through diluting them with resin converted into oil through distillation. You could say "I have never converted resin into oil through distillation for the purpose of yield boosting" and it'd all be fine and dandy. Either way akhi, I do agree with your overall points relative to this discussion.

If given the chance, I would urge you in your own quest to experiment for yourself. See what suits your taste best and then go from there. Don't just do what someone else does for the sake of emulating anyone. Rather, find your own groove and be unique. Talk to your market. There are millions of oud-thirsty souls in Saudi Arabia and they're ready for discourse. Listen to them and connect with them, and forget about the online forums.
Wise words indeed, don't worry, emulation is not my strong-suit. :p I'm an engineer, and engineering is what I do best. I think you know what that means. :rolleyes: The online forums to me are a platform for enjoyable discourse, bringing together a community of Oud lovers. If without the forums, I would not have met so many of the kind souls who love Oud as I do. As we do. As such, I could never forget about it, as within it lies a unique experience, seldom found elsewhere in Oud. The Saudi market is a good one to have, albeit there are certain difficulties one needs to face within it. One example is the widespread opinion that sellers will say anything to sell their product, consumers are very skeptical as a result. Hence, educational discourse whilst selling a product can do more damage than good to your sales. You'd be better off selling them what they're used to, which is not what I personally enjoy selling. Of course, there are some aficionados in the region, and they're good company to have, but good luck finding em when they're a minority of a minority. :confused:
 
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Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#89
Haha attentiveness and alertness? Habibi this is a forum, it ain't impressive to directly quote anyone. There's a search bar, and the whole Oleoresin topic is something everyone is familiar with until we got sick to our stomachs from hearing the same jibberish again and again.
You’d need to know exactly what someone said in order to go searching for and locate it, khap. Being a researcher, I can tell you that with certainty. You wouldn’t search for “Whatever you shout at the mountain, it shouts right back at you” unless you knew exactly what that phrase was, who’d said it, and in what context. Look at it this way: I myself had forgotten I’d said it. And you were able to refresh my memory. To know what I’ve said better than I know it myself, you’d need to be one attentive fella! ;)

The process you are referring to is SO different to 'yield boost' (what I normally think of when you mention 'resin conversion') that the technique we employed to make Aroha Kyaku and Oud Dhul Q didn't even cross my mind when you asked the question! Technically, it is as you say. In practice, it is not used to boost yield but to 'resinify' a less resinous oil via infusing it with the SCENT of resin. For this reason, the process you're referring to is completely different from 'dilution'. Here you can actually smell the resin, as opposed to it acting as an inert filler, which is what it does via the other technique. It is true, technically, the resin IS being converted into oil, yet we're not talking about the yield as the primary objective of the work here; rather, it is for imparting the 'incense note' that the technique is employed.

This whole scenario reminds me of the time when someone came here from the old BN thread and asked why everyone needed to dry agarwood in the sun before distilling it. All the expert distillers over at the other forum were scratching their heads and couldn't answer this one simple question. The way someone who is self-taught via reading processes information is very different to the way someone with hands-on experience processes that same information. You talk about 'resin conversion' as though it were one and the same process no matter how it was accomplished – because the words on the screen all look the same: 'resin' is used right alongside 'conversion' in both discussions. Yet if I were to describe the technicalities of what goes into the one vs the other, it'd be like using the terms 'spine' and 'open heart' next to 'surgery' interchangeably. They're totally different things!

If I asked you, "dear Ensar, have you ever practiced converting resin to oil?" Your answer would and should be "Yes, once or twice".
Yes, it would and should. Only you didn't ask me that. You asked what had changed that I no longer vouch for resin conversion as a technique since I used to believe in and accept it as a viable method in the past. The minute you word your question that way, I'm thinking of 'yield boost', not the Aroha technique. Don't be disappointed or assume I was dodging your question.

Wise words indeed, don't worry, emulation is not my strong-suit. :p
Not worried at all. If you emulated my style I'd take it as an even greater compliment than memorizing everything I write!

I'm an engineer, and engineering is what I do best. I think you know what that means. :rolleyes:
Better quality v-vials? I hear your boxes are quite nice. Congrats. :)

The Saudi market is a good one to have, albeit there are certain difficulties one needs to face within it. One example is the widespread opinion that sellers will say anything to sell their product, consumers are very skeptical as a result. Hence, educational discourse whilst selling a product can do more damage than good to your sales. You'd be better off selling them what they're used to, which is not what I personally enjoy selling.
Tell me about it. I had the rare luck to act as translator for one of my friends who came to meet me in Bangkok a few days ago. A Saudi client called him in the midst of our meeting and he handed me the phone so I could translate. The guy got straight to the point: "Do you have any Seufi?"

I could have bored him to death with oleoresin jibberish for sure!... Instead, I offered him the Seufi my friend had prepared...
 
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#90
unless we're backed by a community of oud connoisseurs that is unfragmented by deceit and propaganda platforms that are run by 'artisan distillers' from their couches in London and Georgia....
Ouch, that was a very specific and uncalled for dig; I don't think it relates to the discussion in any way.
I appear to have struck a nerve with the word 'artisan' though,
so if it helps avoid bitterness, let us just say I meant: small-batch distillers.
If you care to expound on what constitutes an Artisan of Oud to you, I'm happy to discuss it in private.

I think you must have me mistaken for someone else... I've never practiced resin-to-oil 'conversion' or advocated it. Anyone who's ever run a distillation knows that getting 'as much as possible' out of the wood only decreases the quality of the oil, and doesn't improve it in any way.Quite the diametrical opposite of what you suggest! :)

I haven't suggested anything of the sort. :)
I only suggested that I had thought that this resin to oil debate originated from something you had said,
and though I could not quote it as quickly as @Alkhadra, I remember reading this:
Highly resinated wood will ALWAYS yield superior oil to oil-grade wood. All the resin may not get extracted but a long term infection leading to solid resin also brings with it the most amazing oud oils. Try to distill Oud Sultani from oil grade wood and see how far you get. Moreover, resin CAN be distilled into oil if you employ the right techniques.
Which was open to interpretation and seemed to give birth to wild speculation.
That is why I asked you about it, and you answered with this:
I was suggesting distilling the oil that's trapped inside thickened oleoresin. Others have claimed to 'convert' resin into oil in order to boost yield, but in my view that's tantamount to cutting the oil, in this case with liquefied resin. I maintain that if the 'conversion' theory is indeed true, the resin would act as a filler to merely stretch the amount of oil obtained; nothing more. Resin needs to be heated for its true olfactory properties to be experienced, and it cannot be worn on the skin the way essential oil is (try rubbing some super king chips on your skin and see how far you get). Although the essential oil that is trapped within resin pockets is much more 'resinous' than essential oil obtained from white wood, given the maturity and grade of that oil.
Which I agree with :)
But today I'm a bit confused again :confused:, after these contradictory statements:
Technically, it is as you say. In practice, it is not used to boost yield but to 'resinify' a less resinous oil via infusing it with the SCENT of resin.
It is true, technically, the resin IS being converted into oil, yet we're not talking about the yield as the primary objective of the work here; rather, it is for imparting the 'incense note' that the technique is employed.
You talk about 'resin conversion' as though it were one and the same process no matter how it was accomplished...Yet if I were to describe the technicalities of what goes into the one vs the other it'd be like using the terms 'spine' and 'open heart' next to 'surgery' interchangeably. They're totally different things!
I understand the first sentence and I believe that is what you mean to convey,
but when I read the second and third sentences things seem open to interpretation again.
I'd say it is my turn to object to the use of a word ;), and in the case of the second sentence, 'technically' the resin is NOT being converted to oil.
I think it is important to use precise language in such cases. Less room for misinterpretation.
Do you mean capturing a resinous scent from higher grade wood with traditional distillation? And doing that in co-distillation with organic wood? Or mixing the 2 separate oil batches to a precise result?

This whole scenario reminds me of the time when someone came here from the old BN thread and asked why everyone needed to dry agarwood in the sun before distilling it.
Why do they? :)

The clearest proof of that is CO2 extraction, where exactly the same process is carried out without any 'techniques' and everything the wood has to offer is sucked out clean, resulting in a characterless paste that doesn't even hold a candle to distilled oud oil. Taking the same molecules that are present in this paste and somehow incorporating them into the oil doesn't give you a better product.
Agreed, more can be less.
But one can exert control over extracts as well.
Have you tried Sinensis III from Imperial Oud by any chance?
Speaking of extracts, how did you arrive on producing Guallam Solide? (Unfortunately, I've not tried it)

Rather, it is the opposite process that is known to result in a superior product. Selecting only the most fragrant fractions in the ratios that they exist in nature as will yield to the most gentle heat – in effect, a yield 'reducing' technique – this is what I practice.
Thank you for sharing your distillation philosophy.

I've since had an earth-shattering reminder that things are seldom as they seem in this craft, and it is safer to err on the side of caution and say you have no direct experience of any given process than to run the risk of propagating something that may or may not be as you claim.
Well that hooked my interest!
Can you relay the experience?

Short answer: The market for shavings is the Chinese incense market. They dictate the price. Compare the buying power of a China market incense manufacturer to someone like Russian Adam or yours truly, and you quickly begin to realize there's not much of a slice for us in the shavings market,
Could you name one such competitor please?
I'd be interested in sourcing incense that is produced from the shavings that could be utilised to produce great oils.
 

JohnH

Moderator
Staff member
#91
I was thinking of shifting gears. Mods pls let me know if I should start a new thread or is ok here...

My thinking is what would our resident distillers like us to unlearn and re-learn. What do you see from us collectively that may be frustrating to witness and you wish it could be changed? God knows if given the opportunity and audience I would go 90 pages if I was asked the same thing in regards to wine or tea.

Open mic. Ball in your court. Let’s have some edutainment.
Hi Rasoul,
Please carry on within this thread for now and if I decide things need to be moved to a new thread later on I'll do so.
Thanks,
John
 
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Alkhadra

Guest
#92
Yes, it would and should. Only you didn't ask me that. You asked what had changed that I no longer vouch for resin conversion as a technique since I used to believe in and accept it as a viable method in the past. The minute you word your question that way, I'm thinking of 'yield boost', not the Aroha technique. Don't be disappointed or assume I was dodging your question.
Not disappointed at all my friend, it's like saying, "oh, I said I don't do distillation, but what I meant is that I don't do steam distillation, I do other types of distillation". You can respond again if you'd like to, I don't mind the back-n-forth, but we can agree to disagree and both give it a rest. ;)

Not worried at all. If you emulated my style I'd take it as an even greater compliment than memorizing everything I write!
Yeesh, does it help you sleep at night to think that I memorize your words and friend your FB list to get your oils?:oops: then by all means...continue :p

Better quality v-vials? I hear your boxes are quite nice. Congrats. :)
Haha no wonder you're writing a book. Mubarak nshaAllah, and Jazak Allah khair.
 
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Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#94
bump.

it seems threads with true inquiry always fizzle out to silence.
Typing is a luxury of a special class of artisans who don't have any work to produce--the sort of folks who are given to interrogating my Facebook contacts hoping to track down my 'supplier' for Nha Trang LTD. (They have Facebook suppliers for each and every oil they sell, so why shouldn't everyone?)

I'd have to spend several hours nitpicking at your nitpicking to compose any sort of coherent reply to your latest post, and I feel like a lot of life would have left both of us and everyone else reading this thread before we got anywhere.

Let me say again, resin conversion is not traceable back to me. I did it a couple of times using my own way, and don't plan to do it again anytime soon. There are other ways, espoused by other peeps, and those are the things I can't vouch for. That’s what I was referring to when I said it ain't my thang. There’s a very big difference between doing something once just for the heck of it, and doing it every single time, as a matter of course, for every single oil you produce.

If you really want to get to learn about this stuff and ask all the questions you like, you're welcome to visit me in Jordan or attend the October OudFest in the UK. One 'particular vendor' will be there with a whole lot of love to share.

Everyone's participation on these forums goes back to their time constraints, mental preparedness to be trolled (none of you guys, I know), and exposure to a ton of negative vibes which frankly no one needs in their lives.

It has been the way of seeking knowledge throughout history, both East and West, that a certain decorum must be observed by the seeker. Atmospheres like these are not conducive to learning. I don't mind sharing updates about ongoing projects, answering general product questions, and 'blogging' here from time to time. As for a moral obligation to 'teach' or absolve myself before any tribunal that feels like holding itself before me... I never signed up for either of these things.
 
#95
Typing is a luxury of a special class of artisans who don't have any work to produce
lol.
I realise of course that you are busy,
over three weeks had passed before I bumped...


I'd have to spend several hours nitpicking at your nitpicking
As for a moral obligation to 'teach' or absolve myself before any tribunal
We disagree.
I've read my post several times over; I don't see nitpicking, or any type of tribunal.
There are at least a couple of questions that could not have been any more straightforward.


Let me say again, resin conversion is not traceable back to me.
To be fair, I did come across this from Taha:
as m.arif mentioned some of the resin but not all gets converted back to oil. ALL of it, in theory, can be - however prolonging the resin-to-oil conversion could harm the oil content (i.e. the non-converted already-oil oil).
which predates the quote of yours that @Alkhadhra posted


I did it a couple of times using my own way, and don't plan to do it again anytime soon.
Without nitpicking, allow me to at least state that this comes across as very vague.
Also, I don't believe it is even possible within the constraints of traditional hydro-steam distillation.


There’s a very big difference between doing something once just for the heck of it, and doing it every single time, as a matter of course, for every single oil you produce.
Obviously :)


If you really want to get to learn about this stuff and ask all the questions you like, you're welcome to visit me in Jordan or attend the October OudFest in the UK.
Thank you for the invitation. I might take you up on it.
When and where will the Oudfest be? I've not seen details posted anywhere.

thanks
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#96
We disagree. I've read my post several times over; I don't see nitpicking, or any type of tribunal. There are at least a couple of questions that could not have been any more straightforward.
Okay. As one of my China bosses would say, "I'll entertain you...."

I understand the first sentence and I believe that is what you mean to convey, but when I read the second and third sentences things seem open to interpretation again. I'd say it is my turn to object to the use of a word ;), and in the case of the second sentence, 'technically' the resin is NOT being converted to oil.
I think it is important to use precise language in such cases. Less room for misinterpretation.
I read and reread that a few times until I felt like I was reading Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung all over again. Obviously, this led to that feeling of a free-spirited college kid who begrudgingly looks over his homework assignment and wishes he could just chill out and fumigate instead.... Seriously, dude, this stuff ain't scripture! You need not bring a theologian's magnifying lens at the tenses of my words, or try to unearth the 'hidden meanings' to see if any discrepancies can be discovered.

To put it bluntly, I simply can't speak more legibly or with fewer 'contradictions' without having to divulge my process. The way things are now, we're talking in the abstract with zero reference to method, simply because I'm withholding what it is that I do to attain the Aroha effect, in contrast to what the other guy does to get a larger yield. And so, abstractions that may refer to more than one process are taken to refer to one and the same thing due to linguistic overlap; 'resin conversion' is taken to mean one and the same thing, whether it be in the Aroha technique or the other; and I'm being taken to task for having used the same terms in relation to the one when in fact they apply to both.

The upshot: None of this back and forth will get us anywhere so long as I don't describe in detail what both techniques entail. And with deepest regret, I can do no such thing. :)

To be fair, I did come across this from Taha which predates the quote of yours that @Alkhadhra posted
Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.

Try grinding wet wood, and see how far you get. Clearly, the folks who got their artisan diplomas from the old BN thread could never figure that one out. You need to have ground a few batches yourself in order to know. Or as they say in Singapore, 'Belum try, belum tahu.'

Without nitpicking, allow me to at least state that this comes across as very vague. Also, I don't believe it is even possible within the constraints of traditional hydro-steam distillation.
It sure is bound to. I never signed up for disclosing my technique.
Have you ever conducted traditional hydro-steam distillation?

Thank you for the invitation. I might take you up on it. When and where will the Oudfest be? I've not seen details posted anywhere.
You'd need to be an EO customer and signed up to our newsletter in order to receive the official email. Please shoot Coburn a PM and he'll hook it up.

But one can exert control over extracts as well.
One most certainly can.

Have you tried Sinensis III from Imperial Oud by any chance?
I have not had that rare pleasure....

If it is yet another CO2 plantation oil, it is bound to be at least 99% identical to the first one, which I have had the good fortune to sample, thanks to @bhanny. We distilled a Maroke that smelled 98% identical afterward, but that is a topic for another post.

Speaking of extracts, how did you arrive on producing Guallam Solide? (Unfortunately, I've not tried it)
I would love to know which of my oils you have tried. ;)

Since you insist... The process entails frequent trips between a traditional hydro-steam distillation unit and a refrigerator. But before anybody ends up in hot soup for ruining his mom's kabseh, a dedicated fridge is recommended!

Thank you for sharing your distillation philosophy.
You're most welcome.
 
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#97
I read and reread that a few times until I felt like I was reading Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung all over again. Obviously, this led to that feeling of a free-spirited college kid who begrudgingly looks over his homework assignment and wishes he could just chill out and fumigate instead....
I'm glad to see you've returned to your good humour :)
If nothing else, you got to reminisce; you're welcome ;):p

To put it bluntly, I simply can't speak more legibly or with fewer 'contradictions' without having to divulge my process. The way things are now, we're talking in the abstract with zero reference to method, simply because I'm withholding what it is that I do to attain the Aroha effect,
due to linguistic overlap; 'resin conversion' is taken to mean one and the same thing
I've heard you're have a degree in English Lit, so I'm sure you can appreciate precision in language.
I still think you can answer without contradictions or abstractions or precise reference to method.
Frankly, I thought we'd reached the yes or no phase.

The upshot: None of this back and forth will get us anywhere so long as I don't describe in detail what both techniques entail. And with deepest regret, I can do no such thing. :)
Fair enough, I won't ask you to divulge your technique.
I'll state it again, I don't believe 'resin conversion' it is even possible within the constraints of traditional distillation.
And by traditional distillation, I mean the feedstock, a still, water and steam, and a resulting essential oil. Nothing else!
Resin conversion could happen by pyrolysis and cracking, or by hydrolysis with significant alteration to the pH, for example.
But if a chemical process is involved, it is no longer an essential oil, and in that case any buyer should be privy to that information.

I'd also asked of Aroha if you did so by co-distillation with organic wood? Or mixing the 2 separate oil batches to a precise result?
The question arose from the second quote Alkhadra posted.
Is it okay to address that? Or is it also part of the secret recipe?

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.
It was fair to be said.

Try grinding wet wood, and see how far you get.
lol. I'd not thought that is what you meant. That of course makes perfect sense.
Reading "needed to dry agarwood in the sun before distilling it." I guess I thought drying out the dust.

>>Also, I don't believe it is even possible within the constraints of traditional hydro-steam distillation.>>
It sure is bound to. I never signed up for disclosing my technique.
Meaning? If you can come at this from the abstract without disclosure of technique, I'd be interested in hearing more.

Have you ever conducted traditional hydro-steam distillation?
Yes.
Though I'm not sure how far the tongue is in cheek here.

I have not had that rare pleasure....
If it is yet another CO2 plantation oil, it is bound to be at least 99% identical to the first one
I merely pointed it out as it is not lifeless.
I believe you'd been quite vocal at some point against any oud extracts. And you recently had Solide, so I was curious.

Since you insist... The process entails frequent trips between a traditional hydro-steam distillation unit and a refrigerator. But before anybody ends up in hot soup for ruining his mom's kabseh, a dedicated fridge is recommended!
o_O
Is the fridge for the refreshments?
I wasn't actually asking for technique, but how you ended up going for an extract when you've been a vocal opponent, and how the path you walked before eventually selecting the process.

Btw, I'm still interested in any info on any Chinese incense making brand that competes for your shavings.
>>Could you name one such competitor please?
>>I'd be interested in sourcing incense that is produced from the shavings that could be utilised to produce great oils.

I would love to know which of my oils you have tried. ;)
I'll get to Solide, perhaps we'll retouch on it.
I can see this question matters to you, and perhaps you think I've never tried your oils.
Sure, I'll list them as it is no secret:
Yusuf (2011), Purple Dervish, Yusha, Dhul Kifl, Yunus, Maroke 2004, Malay Royale and Kyara Koutan.

You'd need to be an EO customer and signed up to our newsletter in order to receive the official email. Please shoot Coburn a PM and he'll hook it up.
Thank you.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#99
I've heard you're have a degree in English Lit.
All ‘highest form of flattery’ practitioners will make sure you hear that. If I were competing with writers, they’d likely tell you I have a degree in perfumery. ;)

They fail to realize that a work of art must be ‘art’ from each angle you look at it. From the way it is envisioned and executed, to the way it is described, to the way the effort that went into it is documented, to the packaging, advertising... Art comes into play at each and every one of these phases of product development. (Pop quiz to self: Would I rather have an oud oil distilled by Dostoevsky or a haiku collection penned by my kyara Sifu? Hmmm!..... I’d much rather have an artisanally produced bottle of oil by Imperial Oud than either of these things, of course.)

If you ever have the chance to visit Mehmet Özçay’s atelier, you’d witness a live demonstration of what I’m talking about, in a completely unrelated art form. There are six or seven ‘arts’ that come together to make what most people simply call ‘calligraphy’. From the paper maker who forges paper by hand, to the ink craftsman juicing glorious black mürekkep from fossils and resins, to the calligrapher himself, to the guy who then hand mounts the palette with miraculous precision using potato starch on a piece of cardboard, to the illuminator who applies gold with a magnifying lens at the cost of her eyesight, to the carpenter who carves frames out of solid wood then dresses them in gold and silver. I suppose any one of these women and men could hold a degree in English literature... Or they could simply focus on perfecting their craft.

It's not as bad as I make it sound, I know. We're making progress. Getting promoted to 'English Lit' major from 'Harry Potter' is an undeniable accomplishment.

So I'm sure you can appreciate precision in language.
Sometimes. When it contradicts my marketing agenda, I seldom do, actually. ;)

I still think you can answer without contradictions or abstractions or precise reference to method.
I did. Many posts ago and more than once. If you can’t find an answer to that question in what I’ve already said and resaid, you likely won’t find one if I said it again.

Fair enough, I won't ask you to divulge your technique.
Awesome.

I'll state it again, I don't believe 'resin conversion' it is even possible within the constraints of traditional distillation. And by traditional distillation, I mean the feedstock, a still, water and steam, and a resulting essential oil. Nothing else!
We are all entitled to our beliefs.

Resin conversion could happen by pyrolysis and cracking, or by hydrolysis with significant alteration to the pH, for example. But if a chemical process is involved, it is no longer an essential oil, and in that case any buyer should be privy to that information.
Tell that to whoever it pertains to. I only use water and heat.

I'd also asked of Aroha if you did so by co-distillation with organic wood? Or mixing the 2 separate oil batches to a precise result? The question arose from the second quote Alkhadra posted.
Agreed. Alkhadra does post an awful lot of quotes. Did you know he's memorized the entire contents of this website?

Awesome! And what materials have you worked with, if I may be so forward? Are you an up and coming Fabulous Fiver, then? Or is it the Clean Fifteen now? I’ve lost track.

I wasn't actually asking for technique, but how you ended up going for an extract when you've been a vocal opponent, and how the path you walked before eventually selecting the process.
Nope. Not extract. Distillate. Pot to fridge and back. Not as 'refreshing' as you may think, I'll tell you that much!

Btw, I'm still interested in any info on any Chinese incense making brand that competes for your shavings.
I fear if you were to start asking them for precision of language and purity of purport or any such lofty ideal, they would disown me instantly. Ask a China vendor for 'tiny samples' the way our community feels entitled to, or address them in English, even, and you’re bound to get called a watermelon or cantaloupe the way poor Coburn and Kruger were the last time they tried that sort of thing.

Try Japan. Much more willing to engage in discourse and open to the idea of ‘international’ commerce at the retail level. Facebook is having a tough time in China, from what I hear... Hence the lack of custom crafted olfactory wonders from that particular country...

Could you name one such competitor please? I'd be interested in sourcing incense that is produced from the shavings that could be utilised to produce great oils.
Baieido.

I'll get to Solide, perhaps we'll retouch on it.
Hainan Solide, you mean? ;)
 
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