The Maggot Thread

[Taha]

@kesiro, well I for one do give a sh!t.

While its very flattering to see my name alongside Ensar’s, you gotta remember, here’s a guy who’s distilled batches of sinking grade Vietnamese wood, Hainanese and Vietnamese kinams, and so on and so forth.
Basically, the holistic view that his sight is encompassing, which covers above-mentioned ouds along with what he has seen oud ‘become’ in recent years… is something (and no offense here) that neither you nor I can bring into our own vision’s focus.
This might sound like ‘synthetic humility’ on my part. It is not. I have only just been hand-making oils for about a year or so. How can that compare to 14 years of discipleship? It doesn’t.

It was either OR1 or Sultani (can’t remember which), where Ensar mentioned it was a very simple setup and simple cooking. And yet, you smell either one of these, do you smell anything but the wood talking?
I will let you ponder the implications of that.

I can’t speak for other vendors/consumers/lovers of oud. But when I read that little anecdote about Ensar’s Sifu, and I replay some of Ensar’s Youtube videos in my mind, and I think about the likes of Nha Trang LTD… I can’t help but think of something I said to Ensar when he visited me, that once the dust settles, of all the online vendors, I see only him standing. That is my personal opinion.
Anyone who hasn’t smelled NT LTD, please do. You’ll know exactly what I mean, and why I said that the day I smelled it.

Like Ensar at his wizard’s dungeon, I (now) know when I should shut up, and have some humility. You may think its ‘synthetic humility’. But I know who I’m standing next to when I look to my side and what I see is an ankle at eye-level.

The upshot:
When I read about Ensar’s 4-month soak with zero growth (and there are plenty of Youtube videos to show it wasn’t just phone calls to the distiller asking for updates, no, its Ensar HIMSELF stirring the raw materials), its clear that my myopic view of nasty soaking, brought about by what I’ve seen in the case of mass-market raw materials that cannot compare… is nothing but myopic.
Considering the cans of worms (pun intended, sorry!) that my video opened, I wish I could go back in time so that I never posted it. Textbook myopia.
/facepalm

-edit-

@Ensar, just saw you posted while I was typing up my post, amazing that you mentioned Nha Trang LTD, which I had just used as an example.
Someone mentioned to me, Taha you should also make your own version of Nha Trang LTD too. You know what I said? That I'm not that crazy. Even if I could get raw materials like that, I don't think I could do it for < $10K/bottle cost price.
The best I could do, would be to capture the mirror reflection of the water reflection of NT LTD, on a tidal night. Anyone who's ACTUALLY smelled this oil (and not just try to imagine what it 'must be like') will know what I mean. I know that everyone who has smelled this oil so far, has gotten a schooling on every other oil.

 

[Kruger]

Hey Thomas. I really like and appreciate your post. I guess where I am confused, and that is not a hard thing to accomplish given I am just a bone doctor, is with the notion that throughout this whole mess, there is an IDEAL. And I am speaking strictly from the consumers/enthusiasts perspective. There is no doubt there are different styles, techniques, and philosophies how to produce oud essential oil. So what, and pardon my profanity, who gives a shit? I don't see any as illegitimate nor have I seen any serious dismissiveness regarding one or the other in a serious way. If I missed it, I invoke the bone doctor excuse again. The tweaks to either maintain or embellish the smell of the resin/wood are all good in my book.
In most human interactions, and certainly where there is some conflict, there is usually a component of misunderstanding. Maybe there is some of that going on.
Myself, and everyone here benefit enormously from the teachings and wisdom that you, Ensar, Taha, and Adam bring. We all respect and appreciate your input. And most importantly, we have all admired and loved your respective creations, as different as they are in so many ways, and in some ways similar
So....... (everytime my wife starts a sentence with that, its always something bad, lol), different styles, preferences, desired oil end results leads to an enrichment of the oud experience. In the end, to me it is all about the oils. And that is the IDEAL.

And, I love and respect you all.

Hi Kesiro. I guess where I am confused is that we seem to be on the same page!

Every beautiful crevice we can uncover amidst the vastness of agarwood's potential is what gives oud oil its magic. I think we can all agree that the scent of burning oud chips is far more uniform than the variety of scents we’re able to distill out of them. We’re able to unearth fruits and flowers and horses and hay and berries and spices… all from wood that you’d really have to listen extremely closely to to get even hints of these.

I’m not talking about auxiliary notes here. Much of the fruits and flowers are indeed ‘added’ to the resinous core of the naked wood, but that’s not categorically the case. Especially not with high-grade wood. The wood itself contains such notes. It’s part of its DNA. The vapor of heated Borneo chips can be fruity, where vintage Muluku is a spice lover’s dream.

But the oil takes it to another level. And that’s the gist of our philosophy. It’s not about accurately capturing the scent of gently heated chips. Or, rather—it’s not ONLY about that. That’s why I say: Bring on the barn! Bring on whatever it takes to beautify, intensify, fruitify the wood, instead of limiting its potential to the idea of some ideal ‘essence’ you experience by gently heating the chips. Purple Kinam echoes the wood it was distilled from, but then gives you layers upon layers more on top. If I listen to chips heated gently as can be for 9 hours straight on a stethoscope, I don’t think I’ll hear the beating of Sultan Abdüs Selam’s green dark aquatic pulse in any chip from the deepest depths of New Guinea.

Pause.

You do realize I am playing devil’s advocate here, right?

Resume.

Sauerkraut has kept our forefathers going for ages. Why insist that it’s disrespectful to the ‘essence’ of cabbage to add some twang?

That’s the crux of my post, that we welcome it all. That’s why we offer the barn, the fruit, the Senkoh of Assamugo, and everything our master chef can dish up.

BUT—it goes without saying that we keep our knives sharp and kitchen clean. (Hence our surprise at the maggots).

So, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater is what I’m saying. If Taha (or IO, or, or, or) doesn’t like it, doesn’t prefer the style, or believes that a certain approach disrespects the wood somehow, that’s fine. If you like your potatoes raw, I’m totally cool with that. But I believe you’re missing out if you don’t occasionally fry ‘em, boil them, dress and bake ‘em. In fact, I plan to get some bone broth going in your honor

So....... different styles, preferences, desired oil end results leads to an enrichment of the oud experience. In the end, to me it is all about the oils. And that is the IDEAL. Not the oleoresin, not the gently heated chips, not the ‘true’ scent of the wood—because it doesn’t exist. Artisanal oud oil is always more.


*Ideally, I would clarify that I’m talking strictly within the context of quality wood, and get worried about how the $26 wood that goes into some $1,500 oils can warp everyone's understanding. But I don’t think I need to explain that to anyone here. And that’s why I love and respect you all!

 

[Nikhil S]

@Kruger, I come here everyday, multiple times in fact, but I seldom post in the SOTD thread because, honestly, I contemplate Oud much more than I wear it these days.

Nature has a way of maintaining itself and optimization can be plotted on a bell curve. The peak of the bell curve represents peak optimization, with either side diminshing towards zero. To the left of peak there is drought and conditions that are untowards optimizing healthy growth. To the right of peak there is overgrowth, crowding and conditions that cause a battle for nutrients, nourishment and sunlight. In the center there is optimal growth for that particular ecosystem, root systems dig deep, trees are strong and healthy, they flower, leave and bear fruit; a perfectly balanced amalgamation. In medicine we call it homeostasis. In regard to the optimal appreciation of agarwood, it's not about making oils, sculpting beads or burning the wood; it's about removing the hand of man and acting as a spectator to the wonders and balance of nature. To gain a true appreciation in the optimization of agarwood, enter the agarwood jungles and listen closely; I'm sure you'll witness and smell the fruits and flowers in Cambodia, the honeyed hay and woody vanillic tones in Meghalaya, the damp jungle of Malaysia and the oceanic breeze of Papua New Guinea. How can you not? As you stated, it's in the DNA.

Agarwood Distillation Optimization and the Bell Curve

The hand of man turns and twists, it is destructive, constructive, creative, innovative and cruel; we can plainly see this when witnessing the oud world and the distillation of agarwood can also be plotted on a bell curve. The process of agarwood distillation must utilize the hand of man, but in order to optimize the process and capture the "truest nature" in scent profile, the hand of man must seek to minimize it's influence. To the left of peak in agarwood distillation there is greed, profiteering, molestation of the wood and process for gain, deforestation that leaves us in a battle between wild and cultivated wood and a raping of mother nature. To the right of peak there are flamboyant, narcissistic "artistic" interpretations, molding and shaping of scent profiles that are not within the DNA. Here, I'm not refering to any inherent indolic qualities of Mahabali or subtle animalics of Chugoku Senkoh, rather I'm refering to something that goes beyond. Here, I'm refering to tricks, tweaks and the hand of man that produces oils like OM5, that hardly anybody would be able to tell if it's from wild or cultivated feedstock or being played; and when vendors are unscrupulous can fool the masses and sell for a maliciously inflated $1500 a bottle instead of their true asking price. Read that again.

To seek the optimatization in the distillation of agarwood to produce oils with the "truest nature" in scent profile is a marvelous, and IMO, best intent. Make no mistakes though, some of my favorite oils are those with warped and tweaked scent profiles, but that does not signify or correlate to them being the best or worse oils, it's just a personal preference. However, when seeking to optimize the distillation of the "truest nature" by removing as much of the influence of the destructive and creative hand of man, those of my favorite oils are suboptimal; that's the salient truth and it does not denote any disrespect, dead guys, eyes popping out or rigging of the ice.

I am not playing devil's advocate because I don't play with the devil nor do I advocate him. I am advocating for what IMO is the best intent in optimizing the distillation of agarwood, which is not confined by the limitations of "what agarwood oil must be" or moved by the "watch what my hand can do with agarwood": nirvana, contemplate.

Bravo ✊

 

[Ammar]

To seek the optimatization in the distillation of agarwood to produce oils with the "truest nature" in scent profile is a marvelous, and IMO, best intent.

The concept might be true but the execution could go wrong on so many levels during the wood-to-oil life cycle by the hands of the claiming venders and subsequently by the nose of the oud wearers. (Ensar mentioned indirectly several points during this discourse.)

PS: OM5 is pretty easy cultivated to my nose from the first sniff, high quality indeed but still cultivated (Ensar mentioned OM4 not 5 for a reason). You see what I'm talking about...

 

[PEARL]

I've soaked wood for up to six months, out in the open, without any cooling or temperature control, stirring the material daily, and have not witnessed anything growing or emerging from the soak drum. In the end, the desired effect was not even reached, as once we went past the 3-month mark, the 'barn' disappeared altogether to make way for a strong tobacco leaf aroma that smelled as if you'd soaked for 10-14 days with just a tad more depth.

The concept might be true but the execution could go wrong on so many levels during the wood-to-oil life cycle by the hands of the claiming venders and subsequently by the nose of the oud wearers. (Ensar mentioned indirectly several points during this discourse.)

PS: OM5 is pretty easy cultivated to my nose from the first sniff, high quality indeed but still cultivated (Ensar mentioned OM4 not 5 for a reason). You see what I'm talking about...

@Ammar the concept as a concept is true. The execution could go wrong on so many levels during the wood-to-oil life cycle in any distillation. (Ensar mentioned directly, see his quote above, during this discourse; he and other distillers have done so directly and indirectly in discourse scattered throughout the forums). Parry.

read, comprehend; think.

PS: OM5, or should I say ///m5 is high quality indeed and not easily identified as cultivated by myself (I mentioned OM5 not 4 for a reason). You see what I'm talking about...

 

[Ammar]

read, comprehend; think

Indeed, free thinking and comprehension are rarity.

 

[Dorje]

It's difficult not to make some comments, and I don't want to preach, but... IMO everyone is taking things too seriously. Everything we experience, and smell, is just a fleeting, unsubstantial and temporary vision. Interpreting these things as real and permanent leads to becoming weary and tired, you give your energy away over things you cannot control and don't matter much anyways.

You may say, "that's easy for him to say! This is my life!" but I do get to practice it everyday and it's actually worse than this in my business. It's more competitive and the customers are, and I know you won't believe it, but they are less well educated on the subject, which as I've mentioned before is high end 2-channel stereo. I have competitors that make products that have horrible design flaws like cables that can't take the stress of being bent and have wires and connectors that will corrode over the years. Seriously horrible products... but they are never called out by reviewers who never write negative reviews on anything, they just don't review it. There are literally no negative reviews of audio components these days. Not only that, I have so many competitors they must number in the hundreds. It's ridiculous, no doubt, but there's nothing I can do about it... I just completely ignore my competition for the most part.

And because of many factors, one of the largest being the internet, anyone with half a brain can start a direct-market internet-based business. The issue with these folks clouding the waters so to speak is a massive problem, my potential customers are overwhelmed with information and choice. And this is going on in EVERY industry... even supercars. In one of the last "Grand Tour" episodes the hosts went over a dozen or so supercars you've probably never heard of that are competing with Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti, McLaren... it's crazy. Is there anything a competent, honest businessman can do about it to set his business apart? Probably not. At least I have no good ideas. I state my case and tell people exactly what I'm selling them and why, maybe they will listen, maybe not. But, I can't get worked up about it, and I can't get worked up about what others say about my products, I don't give a #$%^ about any of it. The only thing I can control is how I communicate with my potential customers and how that makes me look to them. So I do spend time thinking about how best to write about my products and present my value proposition for my customers. Beyond that, I don't care... I can't care. It's not like I don't want the business but I can't care whether I get it or not. Becoming emotionally invested in things you can't control is a recipe for emotional destruction and loss of energy. This is why intent is key, if you have pure intent (which CAN involve financial stability), do the best you can and don't worry about the outcome things will work out ok.

Finally, I did read a post that seemed like it should have been a private message. Deleting it wasn't exactly the same as censorship.