The Maggot Thread

[Taha]

You're being too modest Rasoul it went more like you said "here's how I understood that post......." and then I said, "yep, that's exactly it".
And I do agree: we need to come up with more accurate terms to describe the non-intrinsic scent notes. I've done it in the past, even went into detail about the what's and why's (I think it was back in the Basenotes days), what type of barn ages into what, and so on.
Heck I even rolled out two fermented oud oils myself (one Indian, one Cambodian) for the sole purpose of educating what a fermentation triggered by the fungus that triggers the resin formation itself, smells like.

The general rule of thumb, of course is that... if it doesn't smell like the wood, its been tinkered with. No Indian wood smells like feces or carcasses, that's a no-brainer, hence a good start. From there, a more accurate lexicon would be beneficial.

Ultimately, its about knowing what the heated WOOD smells like. Most folks still haven't smelled actual heated raw agarwood.
And those who have... well, I'm sure you don't smell feces and carcasses in it.

 

[Oudamberlove]

Agarwood is itself rot.

I understood that Agarwood is the oleoresinated wood fibers. Am i missing something?

 

[Rasoul S]

You're being too modest Rasoul it went more like you said "here's how I understood that post......." and then I said, "yep, that's exactly it".
And I do agree: we need to come up with more accurate terms to describe the non-intrinsic scent notes. I've done it in the past, even went into detail about the what's and why's (I think it was back in the Basenotes days), what type of barn ages into what, and so on.
Heck I even rolled out two fermented oud oils myself (one Indian, one Cambodian) for the sole purpose of educating what a fermentation triggered by the fungus that triggers the resin formation itself, smells like.

The general rule of thumb, of course is that... if it doesn't smell like the wood, its been tinkered with. No Indian wood smells like feces or carcasses, that's a no-brainer, hence a good start. From there, a more accurate lexicon would be beneficial.

Ultimately, its about knowing what the heated WOOD smells like. Most folks still haven't smelled actual heated raw agarwood.
And those who have... well, I'm sure you don't smell feces and carcasses in it.

To add something I like to say it is wonderful you feel so strongly about this. It is what gives your oud certain signature in your oils that is just u. We as enthusiasts, aficionados and students of oud should celebrate living in an era that vastly different oud oils exist. So many different ways to skin a cat.

Now, see I happen to personally hold the same aesthetics as you. Ie I too think if I was a distiller out of touch with the world and your existence, I too would actually have made it my business to capture less than more from the wood. Translate only and only what beauty lies deep in that agarwood. I do this with my approach to wine, food, decor, etc.

BUT I also like variety. I get bored of one genre. I too lik to eat a Big Mac once a year or a lasagna or a hot dog a few times. But I also like to eat complex soups stews and loooooooooong braised dishes. Beauty is in variety also.

I appreciate the level of expertise a sushi chef has vs. A bocusse d’or certified French chef. I think the sultan oils of ensar are of that. A French masterpiece with scents present in the oil that wasn’t in the wood. Oud like ahmad or Tigerwood Royale too are to my nose heavily “worked” oils but in a masterpiece of a way not junk hot dog. Certainly oils from many other vendors too hit this same level of unique notes chreated out of the art of distillation process. Shareef. Imperial. Agarwood Assam haven’t somehow gotten to try any but from what I gather many of Adams oils.

The key word is beauty in variety and creating an environment that is welcome to all styles of oils.

 

[Taha]

Perhaps the most pertinent and most relevant and most deserved footnote ever, to my essay earlier:
Its a pity that the discussion got dragged around a bit, but I would like everyone to NOT forget Ensar's quite explicit preface. Please don't think Ensar = filthy oils, and Taha = pure oils, and that he's trying to defend filthy oils. This is NOT true.
Ensar's own personal preference is actually for oils extracted from utterly unmolested wood. In any shape or form. I am even tempted to venture the guess that not for a SINGLE distillation in the long list of distillations that he conducted with his own hands, did he ever let the wood even ferment.. let alone rot.

And so, neither he nor any other vendor was the target of my censuring. For all I know, Ensar and all other vendors go even further distances than me, to ensure there is no contamination. I don't know, I wasn't there, and.. I don't care.
This is not a competition. Its not a war. At least it wasn't meant to be.

In case its still not clear to some... Ensar's playing the devil's advocate, and I applaud him for that because despite he himself feeling very passionately about preserving the purest essence of the highest grades of agarwood, he is presenting the opposing view in a way that it can be meaningful and educational for all all.

To taha this means absence of extended soaking. Absence of techniques that encourage microbial bacterial etc. growth. To taha the single greatest homage to pay to the wood to the hunters to the people to the nature etc. is to capture the essence of the wood as is and turn it into oil. Not play with it to change its nature or introduce new aromatics.

I just want to remind you though, that to me although rotting the wood is the height of disrespect, but to me its also about other 'tricks' that don't entail abuse and filth.
It is for that reason that I for the longest time haven't done any 'clever distillations', the likes of Ketenangan, which smells awesome and in fact awesomely kinamic. Otherwise I'd utilize tweaks to make every oil smell kinamilicious. I'd have done that with the Mokokchung distillation, I would have done that with the two Pilipinas, as well all the other oils I cooked this past year. But no. For me its about stepping out of the picture. Someone like m.arif or Shabby will attest to the fact that the entire time an oil is cooking, literally all I'm doing is ensuring nothing (including myself) gets in the way. I won't share publicly what that entails, but Rasoul I'm happy to give you some examples over the phone (and I've given you some already, earlier). That's about as 'mad scientist' as I get: stepping out of the frame. And you'll realize its all classic principles of distillation... just utilized at specific times and specific ways with a specific purpose.
And considering how much harder its been to get good wood this year, I think its also time to bid farewell to Gen4 as well.

 

[Ammar]

@Taha,

I didn't see any attack on venders in your post which I don't care if so since a good vender is good they prove theselves with their persistant quality products on the long run, but what I see is a misleading to the newbies and people who put their trust in you. You posted a moggot video which turned to be your own maggots from postdistillate let to rot as a prove to let us see what we are putting on our skin by using barn oils in general which are basically a predistillate fermentation the high quality of them are from professional local distillers that mostly you don't know them, their distillery condition and their way of distillation running (as nobody sane or know what true oud is put the fecal quality rotten type of oils on their skin). This creates deep confusion to the readers to the level that true olfactory enthusiast had the idea to toss Assam Organic to the trash which is a crime to the oud world, and probably several new to oud have already developed aversion to these beautiful barn oils (whether you like them or not) by reading your strong fact-like statement preventing them from potential future soul touching enjoyment.

I'm physician and scientific person who have zero tolerance to pseudoscience from anyone. It's OK that you created your signature and own way of oud understanding but no need to prove the other way around is wrong, instead just focus on what you are good at.

"With great power comes great responsibility" ~Uncle Ben

 

[Taha]

You're absolutely right, my one regret with posting that video is that people (FAR more than I had thought!) took it as me implying this is how oils like Assam Organic (and other conscientiously made barn oils) are made. I had clearly said "mass-market", and I'll now clarify that further:
Some of you have already seen this video a while back, and know the story. This was for a customer in Abu Dhabi who once came to my home last year, got utterly smitten when I did some side-by-side wood heating + oil swiping, and ended up getting a bunch of Cambodian oils. He showed them to his relatives, and they basically told him to the effect of.. it ain't got barn so it ain't oud oil. So he got really frustrated and asked me if I can make "Taha style" oils "like the oils in the ME market". To that, I first responded "you mean cows, cow farts, and dead cows? No wood smells like that, so how can I make something like that 'Taha style'?". He laughed, of course, and understood my point. I then made the little video clip to demonstrate what it was that he was actually asking for.
Mass-market oud. Maggot oud. YES the majority of those oils are made this way, the norm and not the exception. But don't ask me, ask anyone else who travels around the oud world, they'll tell you the same.
Why I posted that immediately after the tragedies in the Philippines: to intensify the profundity. To re-align folks' tastes and preferences for purer essences of this rare and prized wood.

At any rate, you are 100% correct. My post could (and understandably did) get misconstrued. And for that I apologize to you, and everyone else who thought it was misleading.

But,

It seems that we are in the era of oud millennials and oud feminists, few people appreciate oud powerhouses these days.

Those AA glorious past days are gone...

I think this is more damaging to the appreciation of true oud, far more than my opinions on warped oud – be it fermented, or be it rotten.
I welcome you to come visit me, I keep baggies of past distillation materials. You smell them (asses the wood quality yourself), then you compare them to the oils (assess and decide if they are 'feminized', or in fact quite accurate).
Its true that I'm broke and lost all the money, with the downfall of my wood business. So my 'glory days' are gone, since the Great Extinction hit. But my hand-made oils run circles around my earlier oils (I'll make an exception for Pencerahan though). Again, smelling the raw materials alone would make you understand why I will travels thousands of kilometers just to get batches of vintage wood to cook. And then smelling the oil side-by-side would make you realize that Taha's glory days may have gone with the wood business, but the new hand made oils are far, far more glorious.
You are MORE than welcome to visit, dayfan kareeman.

 

[Ammar]

You're absolutely right, my one regret with posting that video is that people (FAR more than I had thought!) took it as me implying this is how oils like Assam Organic (and other conscientiously made barn oils) are made. I had clearly said "mass-market", and I'll now clarify that further:
Some of you have already seen this video a while back, and know the story. This was for a customer in Abu Dhabi who once came to my home last year, got utterly smitten when I did some side-by-side wood heating + oil swiping, and ended up getting a bunch of Cambodian oils. He showed them to his relatives, and they basically told him to the effect of.. it ain't got barn so it ain't oud oil. So he got really frustrated and asked me if I can make "Taha style" oils "like the oils in the ME market". To that, I first responded "you mean cows, cow farts, and dead cows? No wood smells like that, so how can I make something like that 'Taha style'?". He laughed, of course, and understood my point. I then made the little video clip to demonstrate what it was that he was actually asking for.
Mass-market oud. Maggot oud. YES the majority of those oils are made this way, the norm and not the exception. But don't ask me, ask anyone else who travels around the oud world, they'll tell you the same.
Why I posted that immediately after the tragedies in the Philippines: to intensify the profundity. To re-align folks' tastes and preferences for purer essences of this rare and prized wood.

At any rate, you are 100% correct. My post could (and understandably did) get misconstrued. And for that I apologize to you, and everyone else who thought it was misleading.

But,
I think this is more damaging to the appreciation of true oud, far more than my opinions on warped oud – be it fermented, or be it rotten.
I welcome you to come visit me, I keep baggies of past distillation materials. You smell them (asses the wood quality yourself), then you compare them to the oils (assess and decide if they are 'feminized', or in fact quite accurate).
Its true that I'm broke and lost all the money, with the downfall of my wood business. So my 'glory days' are gone, since the Great Extinction hit. But my hand-made oils run circles around my earlier oils (I'll make an exception for Pencerahan though). Again, smelling the raw materials alone would make you understand why I will travels thousands of kilometers just to get batches of vintage wood to cook. And then smelling the oil side-by-side would make you realize that Taha's glory days may have gone with the wood business, but the new hand made oils are far, far more glorious.
You are MORE than welcome to visit, dayfan kareeman.

Ah I can see why you posted the irrelevant video now basically as a countercoup to what I've posted before at the other forum but unfortunately it took unexpected turn when member here raised his genuine concern and linked it to your Facebook post. You could've just simply discussed clearly your points on how AA glorious days still alive that would be more useful and informative to the readers instead of rushing into posting misleading vaguely correlated video/posts. Afterall, my words value doesn't weigh as much as yours to the readers.

Thank you for the clarification and invitation...

 

[Dorje]

My thoughts...

The concept of "sacred" is total BS. The separation of something holy and spiritual from that which is not is an illusion. Simply by labeling something "sacred" we create a false dichotomy. Our perceptions are mired in a relativistic point of view that has questionable validity, and despite this we still from strong opinions.

So instead of judgement I try for understanding. That is the basis of the last question I asked, which has been ignored. OK if you don't want to answer, fine... but the reason I ask is for understanding.

Perhaps, instead of fermentation (or any other tampering) being "the height of disrespect" it was done for a purpose... and the one thing I can see is aging. It seems many times these oils are not intended to be used right away, they are intended to sit for X # of years before they achieve the scent the distiller was going for. Perhaps, without fermentation the result was a more "modern" interpretation closer to "Gen 3" but they don't age well, especially in pre-modern times where you can't just order a bunch of v-vials that can be hermetically sealed. It's hard NOT to notice some oils age well and others are ruined by aging. So, instead of disrespect maybe it's about RESPECT as these distillations will last indefinitely while clean ones will not?

Just to be clear, this DOES NOT mean I am judging, things are what they are. Some things are best enjoyed fresh while others are best aged. It's just a question.... and will certainly impact how I store and use some of these oils as well. If I put my 1/2 bottle of Kalyani away for 10 years and it's ruined, is THAT not the height of disrespect?

 

[Taha]

The video I posted is itself the Facebook video (on a computer, you can see the Facebook icon at the bottom right of the video, and you can click to go directly to the Facebook link).
I didn't rush by the way, like I said I shared this video with others before ever posting it here (this was the Maluku material post-distillation, and that was a while back), but I won't deny that your post was certainly the trigger for the public post. I'm glad you understood that.
I do however disagree about it being irrelevant or misleading though (refer to my stated intention behind the deliberate hyperbole earlier). Like I said, I find your assertion of 'feminization' far more misleading when I myself have smelled the raw materials that I cook (and use the raw materials' aroma as the roadmap), as have those who have visited me and gotten to compare woods and oils side by side.
And I also disagree about your words not holding value. I think folks of even opposing tastes, opinions and alignments equally see your words as carrying weight, since you have never been one to be a groupie, nor hesitated to share your brutally honest thoughts even when it goes against the grain.
With great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Ensar Oud]

My thoughts...

The concept of "sacred" is total BS. The separation of something holy and spiritual from that which is not is an illusion. Simply by labeling something "sacred" we create a false dichotomy. Our perceptions are mired in a relativistic point of view that has questionable validity, and despite this we still from strong opinions.

So instead of judgement I try for understanding. That is the basis of the last question I asked, which has been ignored. OK if you don't want to answer, fine... but the reason I ask is for understanding.

Perhaps, instead of fermentation (or any other tampering) being "the height of disrespect" it was done for a purpose... and the one thing I can see is aging. It seems many times these oils are not intended to be used right away, they are intended to sit for X # of years before they achieve the scent the distiller was going for. Perhaps, without fermentation the result was a more "modern" interpretation closer to "Gen 3" but they don't age well, especially in pre-modern times where you can't just order a bunch of v-vials that can be hermetically sealed. It's hard NOT to notice some oils age well and others are ruined by aging. So, instead of disrespect maybe it's about RESPECT as these distillations will last indefinitely while clean ones will not?

Just to be clear, this DOES NOT mean I am judging, things are what they are. Some things are best enjoyed fresh while others are best aged. It's just a question.... and will certainly impact how I store and use some of these oils as well. If I put my 1/2 bottle of Kalyani away for 10 years and it's ruined, is THAT not the height of disrespect?

Dear @Dorje, I have not forgotten about your question (the soak seems to want to take longer with this one, but don't worry, I won't let it ferment). The new set of questions you raise are extremely pertinent, and I am sure Taha will chime in with the appropriate responses from his peculiar school of the ‘culinary’ arts. I may want to add a cent or two in due course, in lieu of any implications of my own school.

You folks have put a HUGE task in front of me with all the confusion that seems to be spiraling out of control regarding soaking and all the various 'madhhabs' of oud distillation. I will try to have something ready ASAP so the waters could calm down and everyone can have some clarity (hopefully) for a change. Just bear in mind I'm traveling, so I may not be available to respond immediately if anything should get out of hand. Whatever you do, don't crucify anyone. Take a healthy swipe of Assam Organic (Meghalaya!) and chill.

 

[Taha]

My thoughts...

The concept of "sacred" is total BS. The separation of something holy and spiritual from that which is not is an illusion. Simply by labeling something "sacred" we create a false dichotomy. Our perceptions are mired in a relativistic point of view that has questionable validity, and despite this we still from strong opinions.

So instead of judgement I try for understanding. That is the basis of the last question I asked, which has been ignored. OK if you don't want to answer, fine... but the reason I ask is for understanding.

Perhaps, instead of fermentation (or any other tampering) being "the height of disrespect" it was done for a purpose... and the one thing I can see is aging. It seems many times these oils are not intended to be used right away, they are intended to sit for X # of years before they achieve the scent the distiller was going for. Perhaps, without fermentation the result was a more "modern" interpretation closer to "Gen 3" but they don't age well, especially in pre-modern times where you can't just order a bunch of v-vials that can be hermetically sealed. It's hard NOT to notice some oils age well and others are ruined by aging. So, instead of disrespect maybe it's about RESPECT as these distillations will last indefinitely while clean ones will not?

Just to be clear, this DOES NOT mean I am judging, things are what they are. Some things are best enjoyed fresh while others are best aged. It's just a question.... and will certainly impact how I store and use some of these oils as well. If I put my 1/2 bottle of Kalyani away for 10 years and it's ruined, is THAT not the height of disrespect?

That is an excellent and thought-provoking post. I have myself sealed oils, in vials, in bottles of various types and sizes, with Argon, without Argon, precisely to make these observations.
There is absolutely no doubt that 'abused oud' "ages" far better, where "aging" inquotes implies deliberate oxidation. Its a common sight you see in the oud world, gallons of maggot-oud oils sitting uncapped. Leaving the bottles uncapped no doubt takes care of much of the nasty notes, but here I will add that when you compare a maggot distillation that was force-oxidized (poorly "aged") you'll notice that the end result is still a far cry from a conscientiously-fermented oud oil that was properly sealed and aged.
And as for non-fermented and non-rotted ouds, my 7+ years of observation with near-empty bottles and vials of old oils stored under varying conditions has shows that oxidation is the number 1 enemy of such oils. But stored properly with minimal exposure to air (60%+ filled with oil, or Argon-sealed), they will stay as pristine as the day they reached their maturity.

 

[Oudamberlove]

But my hand-made oils run circles around my earlier oils (I'll make an exception for Pencerahan though).

No doubt with Pencerahan.
I compared it to Inderapura Encens, some similarities at first swipe, but each and every minute that passed, Pencerahan kept revealing the sheer quality of the would used, I couldn’t help but think of Oud Sultani (sinking grade agarwood).

 

[Dorje]

Thanks! I think that means maybe some 1 mL v-vials are warranted. I also have a bottle of nitrogen gas, I actually use it to flush air out of teflon tubing, but it's also commonly used to preserve wine and foods, maybe it will work well for oud too... I guess when we refer to the top notes as ethereal, it is also literal truth.

 

[Rasoul S]

all active participants on this subject:

i said it before let me say it more concisely. this is how is see it:

in my eyes, it appears we are arguing if sashimi is superior to a multi-ingredient, multi-spice added, day-long braised stew.
NO.
they are apples and oranges.

sometimes i like burning kyara kokoh for a very pure kyara note, while other days i am after kyara enju where there are musk notes, spices and many other awesome stuff along kyara. soemtimes i like to listen to a soloist, other days the mood calls for listening to a symphony orchestra. some days minimal, some days maximal.

each person's aesthetics and set of values will guide them to favour one over the other, while some decide they are equal and simply based on their mood, time of the year, context of the supper, chose one over other.

it would be a sad day for a die hard japanese chef to bend and make french or italian or cantonese style japanese food. vice versa. fusion=confusion. it is wonderful to see passionate distillers with strong beliefs over what they believe to be the way. us as enthusiasts can opt to subscribe to one school vs the other or embrace it all and enjoy it all and be merry and thrilled to have options.

variety is spice of life.

life without kenmei, wanmei and many gen 3 oils is a very very very very sad one for me. equally if there are no zachariya, ceen, layth, sri pada, viet zephyr, lushai hills, mekong reserve.... anymore, it will be a terrible loss to us all.

@Dorje
corect. it is in my opinion too that gen 3 oils dont really seem to age. but my sample and time of experiment is not definitive. i need more time to be able to draw conclusions and i doubt all gen 3 oils behave the same. i define age as not just keeping but improving. gaining nuances. becoming more complex. not only so far i don't see that, but i don't see them keeping as long either. there is a beauty and roamntic feel to this though. to have a fragile substance on hand. wear it. enjoy it. add multi swipes. shower in it while you let the oils destined for the long haul age away.

in the world of wine we celebrate wines that are meant to be drank young while we equally celebrate wines that taste horrible in their first 10 years. it is having access to both and in between that makes the hobby fun. the recognition that some wines age better than others. some need it. some dont. you get the picture... same with tea. a young pu-er tea is rough around the edges, tannic, bitter and unpleasant. 10, 20, 30 years goes by and magic happens. no amount of over steeping will coax any angularity, bitterness or astringency out of it. on the other hand, a freshly picked, young first flush Darjeeling is best enjoyed young. is puer better than Darjeeling? or vice versa? no. both are beautiful.

 

[Ammar]

Like I said, I find your assertion of 'feminization' far more misleading when I myself have smelled the raw materials that I cook (and use the raw materials' aroma as the roadmap), as have those who have visited me and gotten to compare woods and oils side by side.

By the way, I clearly said oud "Feminists" which was not a typo reflecting oud wearer behavior and taste, not referring to oud "feminization" as an adjective description of your oils. There is a difference that I thought it's obvious. Having said that it was my fault to be lazy not clarifying this.

My apology...

 

[JohnH]

By the way, I clearly said oud "Feminists" which was not a typo reflecting oud wearer behavior and taste, not referring to oud "feminization" as an adjective description of your oils. There is a difference that I thought it's obvious. Having said that it was my fault to be lazy not clarifying this.

My apology...

What on earth is an 'oud feminist'?

 

[kesiro]

What on earth is an 'oud feminist'?

Lol. I had some joke responses but I realized I want to know what it is as well.

 

[Philip]

I had every intention to revert back to my preferred MO, which is passive participation and passive learning.

I feel compelled, however, to come back just to state, in the face of the ugliness that ensued, the following:

1) I have a better understanding of what Taha intended to communicate
2) I have a better understanding of the difference between pre-distillation fermentation versus soaking
3) I have better understanding of vendor preferences (EO, AA) and respective syles (Gen3, Gen4, Senkoh etc)

Ad hominem attacks and overreactions will not, and have not, won the day. Something good came out of this.

Now... getting back to business:

Take a healthy swipe of Assam Organic (Meghalaya!) and chill.

I am happy to report that trash pick-up in my neighborhood isn't until Friday . I have retrieved my Assam Organic and I am indulging in the biggest swipe ever.
(That was sarcasm)

See you kids around

 

[PEARL]

If there was any malicious criticism, or criticism at all for that matter, during the course of this conversation, I didn't find it.
@Taha
Anybody who would suggest or surmise that the mention of personal misfortune, in you explaining why you choose your way, was done for material gain lacks mental dexterity, intellectual aptitude, adequate cognitive functioning and common sense. Anyone who would support such a premise is a supporter of ignorance. They couldn't find their way out of a paper bag with a compass, map, GPS, pieces of twine tied from their noses to the exit and a seeing eye dog that knows the way.

What on earth is an 'oud feminist'?

I clearly said oud "Feminists" reflecting oud wearer behavior and taste, not referring to oud "feminization" as an adjective description of your oils. There is a difference that I thought it's obvious. Having said that it was my fault to be lazy not clarifying this.

Oud feminists is as stated, a silly a$$ BS moniker used as a pejorative to describe those with preference, behavior and taste in oud different from the originator of the term. Despite saying that it differentiates from feminization as an adjective to describe oils, it doesn't as the oud Feminists wearer decides to wear oud feminization oils. I fixed it @Ammar.

 

[kesiro]

@PEARL Your take on the implications made on the other forum about Taha are very adroit and 100% on point. Some of the recent posts about Taha, (thankfully some have been pulled, although I saved screenshots for posterity) could have been only made by those with some psychological problems, marginal intelligence, or both. No matter how hard I try to look at your posts, I cannot see anything to suggest there was an intent of anything other then pointing the reality of what exists in the procurement and production of top quality oud. Furthermore, the lemming/herd mentality just offends me personally. The jumping on the bandwagon without any personal inquiry or intellectual assessment is the way of the weak minded.

I am pointing this out @Taha, even as I expect a flamethrower of personal insults by the usual suspects for simply pointing out the obvious, because I know how personally you take your work and how caring and loyal you are to the people who you employ and work with. Not to mention that many of the oils you have made have been offered at pretty much cost. There are those who simply cannot be reasoned with or take the time to inform themselves.