The Maggot Thread

[Taha]

One guy died...


...and another guy's leg got crushed.


When you've seen and experienced the suffering and difficulty of procuring high quality raw material first-hand, you'll understand why I refuse to do oud-maggot co-distillations. One may call it 'traditional'. I call it disrespect of agarwood, of the highest order.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1572264466202530

 

[m.arif]

Oh.....no.........maggots................................

 

[Royal Bengal Oud]

May Allah give your friend paradise, and may God protect all wood hunters ,
God have Mercy, Maggots!?!? , for a moment I thought it was mosquito larva, I get them in my compost tea for my garden, but those are Maggots ? God have mercy , now that's scary and fascinating at the same time Taha Bhaia ☕️☕️☕️

 

[kesiro]

I hear those maggots are high in protein.

 

[Royal Bengal Oud]

I hear those maggots are high in protein.

amazing for fishing bait , but I still use worms and old School Rapala

 

[Philip]

Hello @Taha -

There is one, singular goal behind this posting of mine and the questions I have for you: I genuinely want and need to understand your post about the maggot video.

I wish I could unsee your video - not because I prefer to remain ignorant on the topic, but because without further clarification, it will forever and unjustly taint my perception of ALL barnyard Hindi. Needless to say, that is just depressing.

At first I thought you were mostly referring to this specific maggot oil in question, but then, in your parallel post on Facebook, you stated the following:

"Barn, farm, fecal, diaper, slaughterhouse.... yep! Basically, if it doesn't smell like agarwood (the wood), now you know why"

"I wanted people to see what they are really putting on their skin when they use barnyard oils"

How is the layman, such as myself, supposed to process these comments? Assam Organic is barnyard Hindi on steriods - Do I toss it in the trash?

My takeaway from your post (on Facebook) is that Hindi Oud does not inherently smell barnyard, and that the traditional barnyard quality is mostly a result of a manipulated and corrupted distilling process (soaking, fermentation etc...). Your categorical and matter-of-fact statements, coupled with the video, left me powerless but to interpret your post as a condemnation of barnyard Hindi.

Is it inherently wrong to manipulate the wood and to tweak the distilling process in order to yield a desired outcome?

I will admit that all of the above can be best described as incoherent and frenzied thoughts. It very possible that I have missed your point entirely - and if so, please forgive me. I'm just left scratching my head, and most importantly, feeling very sad.

What nuance am I missing here? A heartfelt thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[PEARL]

@Philip my thoughts on the subject and how I interpretate this matter is based on some of my reading. However, the distillers are assuredly better at telling us exactly what happens during soaking and manipulation of the feedstock. From my understanding there are crude, unhygienic soak methods, as well as hygienic ones such as cold soaks, etc. I would think that it’s possible to soak to fermentation without introducing fly larvae into the soaking vessel and that any larvae present in the wood would be destroyed through proper cleaning and grinding, all done hygienically.

We also have to remember the nature of what produces agarwood and what triggers infection. Everything from fungal attack, insects, nails, cutting, wood etc. Then we have to think of the distillation apparatus itself, which could possibly be “dirty”. From that perspective, and unfortunately, I’d think that fly larvae and hence maggots could POSSIBLY be present in any soak/distillation regardless to whether or not a barn oil is produced.

My takeaway here is a conscientious, hygienic distillation versus one that is not. And don’t get me started on the FDA’s allowance of maximum levels of rat hair and feces that can be present in the food we eat and still be considered “good”.

Methinks you’ve sparked up a good conversation for discourse.

 

[Philip]

Thank your @PEARL - your contribution is priceless. What I am getting out of your post is the following: you are seemingly putting Taha's post in context and applying a filter to his comments. You are helping me narrow it down to unhygienic soak vs. hygienic soak.

I am a simple man - the above was not at all readily apparent to me from Taha's comments.

General follow-up questions for the ether:

1) How do we distinguish unhygienic vs hygienic soaks? What are the parameters that define one versus the other? Which authority decides these parameters?
2) Is it possible to identify all undesirable variables, from tree to distillation (nail rust, fungi, larvae, soaking vessel etc etc), and then control for these variables in such a way to produce a certifiable hygienic soak?
3) Is the presence of maggots 1.5 weeks post-distillation an indicator of an unhygenic soak? If so, how can one discern/demonstrate that it was not due to the introduction of a foreign agent post distillation - ie, that was not present not during the soak?
4) Is it incumbent upon the distiller/vendor to specify the soaking methodology?
5) Is it incumbent upon the consumer to hold distillers up to these standards?
6) If a 100% hygienic soak yields to a barnyard oil, is that oil's integrity untouched? I sure would think so.

What I am still struggling with is the following:

When I read...

"I wanted people to see what they are really putting on their skin when they use barnyard oils"

...my brain automatically thinks that Taha is qualifying the barnyard scent as unnatural, and therefore, bad - regardless of unhygienic vs hygienic.

I don't expect you PEARL to speak for Taha. I'm just proceeding with my word vomit.

I am ecstatic to be learning more....
I welcome anyone else's contribution

 

[kooolaid79]

Very interesting topic. Will be following this closely as well as Indian Ouds are very dear and near to me.

 

[Oudicated]

I feel that a soak pre-distillation would be different than spent material, post distillation left to rot. Either way, that video is nasty haha.

 

[PEARL]

@PEARL

General follow-up questions for the ether:

1) How do we distinguish unhygienic vs hygienic soaks? What are the parameters that define one versus the other? Which authority decides these parameters?
2) Is the presence of maggots 1.5 weeks post-distillation an indicator of an unhygenic soak?
2) Is it incumbent upon the distiller/vendor to specify the soaking methodology?
3) Is it incumbent upon the consumer to hold distillers up to these standards?
4) If a 100% hygenic soak yields to a barnyard oil, is that oil's integrity untouched? I sure would think so.

What I am still struggling with is the following:
When I read...

"I wanted people to see what they are really putting on their skin when they use barnyard oils"

...my brain automatically thinks that Taha is qualifying the barnyard scent as unnatural, and therefore, bad - regardless of unhygienic vs hygienic.

@Philip you pose interesting questions and IMO there are no real right or wrong answers. Some of it comes to user preference. The barnyard scent as being preferred has been a topic of conversation amongst myself, @kesiro and @kooolaid79; with me always being correct of course. There is no doubt that my preference tends towards oils that have some level of barniness. However, I do believe that original Hindi oils did not possess that quality, I believe they were more like Lalitya, Camasa, Shano Shokat, Chugoku Senkoh, and oils of that ilk. One thing to remember is that with ALL hydrodistilled oils, that the wood experiences pre-distillation soak, whether that soak lasts from 5 seconds to 5 weeks is at the discretion of the distiller and may encompass something they're trying to achieve in the scent profile of the resultant oil as we can see in barn oils. I see a preference for barn oils analogous to a preference of kimchi or sauerkraut over boiled cabbage; a preference for yogurt or kefir over milk; smoked salmon over poached; red wine over grape juice. In all of those instances, different actions in the manufacturing process produce different taste, all of which cater to a preference. And none of which I can say are unnatural.

1.) Beyond me.
2.) I think you meant pre-distill soak and no I do not think that in itself would qualify a distillation as unhygienic.
The other 2.), 3.) and 4.) are difficult to answer and goes to the perception of people. For instance, bees make the finest, premium Sidr honey that's prized in the Arab world, most wouldn't find offense in eating something that's produced by bees. Yet many would be grossed out to find that maggots MAY be partly responsible for the barn oils scent because they find maggots to be somehow dirtier than a bee. Maggots are actually beneficial as they eat "junk", have you ever seen beneficial human wound debridement using maggots, I have. The maggots could possibly be eating the "junk" of the elongated pre-distill soak?!?!?

 

[kesiro]

I feel that a soak pre-distillation would be different than spent material, post distillation left to rot. Either way, that video is nasty haha.

You are quite correct. The maggot soup is post distillation, left over to stew. I do not think “traditional” distillations include maggots but I do think it is likely there is a bunch of organic matter that is part of the process and some of that stuff becomes part of the final oil. Without a doubt, I love some of those oils. But there is a difference between those oils and the ultra clean, true to resin, oils like Chugoku Senkoh’s and Lavanya’s of the world. Each has their place.

 

[Dorje]

Interesting... there was always something I liked about oud but I never felt like buying any, with one exception, until Taha's Gen3s. Most of the barnyard and aged ouds just don't do it for me.

One thing is the barny and dark colored oils seem to change less over time while some of the other samples I have thickened, and this is obviously bad as these oils have sort of lost their identity. They still smell like oud but this is not a good aging and they aren't worth using anymore... it's kinda sad. It may be these oils appreciate a lot less air space or they are just not meant to be kept long term.

So, my question would be, are the traditional distilling methods assuming long-term aging will take place and the cleaner distillations best used fresh? If so are we best off storing "cleaner" oud in full vials, maybe just 1 mL, so only 1 mL at a time is subjected to air and the remainder would be with less air? Conversely, what happens if we leave the bottle cap off a barny, dark oud for a long period of time? Or use a breathable filter top to keep germs out?

EDIT: It might be clearer to ask if the soaking and traditional methods, despite being gross, are preserving the oud?

Open fermentation in the jungle and then distilling the result does seem a little gross, but no judgement here. It's not like the origins of musk and ambergris, etc are any better...

 

[Philip]

I am soaking all of this up, pun intended....
Thanks to all !

 

[Philip]

You are quite correct. The maggot soup is post distillation, left over to stew.

Exactly, that's why I am having a hard time understanding how the video is relevant to anything.... other than to state that organic matter is and probably will always be present throughout the whole process.
I think there must be a severe break-down in communication because I'm confused.

 

[Ensar Oud]

Thank your @PEARL - your contribution is priceless. What I am getting out of your post is the following: you are seemingly putting Taha's post in context and applying a filter to his comments. You are helping me narrow it down to unhygienic soak vs. hygienic soak.

I am a simple man - the above was not at all readily apparent to me from Taha's comments.

General follow-up questions for the ether:

1) How do we distinguish unhygienic vs hygienic soaks? What are the parameters that define one versus the other? Which authority decides these parameters?
2) Is it possible to identify all undesirable variables, from tree to distillation (nail rust, fungi, larvae, soaking vessel etc etc), and then control for these variables in such a way to produce a certifiable hygienic soak?
3) Is the presence of maggots 1.5 weeks post-distillation an indicator of an unhygenic soak? If so, how can one discern/demonstrate that it was not due to the introduction of a foreign agent post distillation - ie, that was not present not during the soak?
4) Is it incumbent upon the distiller/vendor to specify the soaking methodology?
5) Is it incumbent upon the consumer to hold distillers up to these standards?
6) If a 100% hygienic soak yields to a barnyard oil, is that oil's integrity untouched? I sure would think so.

What I am still struggling with is the following:

When I read...

"I wanted people to see what they are really putting on their skin when they use barnyard oils"

...my brain automatically thinks that Taha is qualifying the barnyard scent as unnatural, and therefore, bad - regardless of unhygienic vs hygienic.

I don't expect you PEARL to speak for Taha. I'm just proceeding with my word vomit.

I am ecstatic to be learning more....
I welcome anyone else's contribution

Very relevant and timely questions to raise @Philip. I guess much of the confusion would be dispelled if it was pointed out that this was not some random vat encountered in a nondescript distillery, but Taha's own pot, in his own house, post-distillate & cooking water left to 'germinate' for days on end, without any kind of covering. It bears pointing out that, unlike most soaking vats, the pot is metal (either copper or steel).

 

[Taha]

@Philip, thanks for asking the questions. Aside from deciding to wear the distiller’s coat yourself, that’s the only way to get these answers!
@PEARL has pretty much summed it up, but I will add a bit more.

Firstly, I would add that just as Adam brought up within that Facebook post, there IS a natural funk smell as well, which is possible to be captured in oils in very very rare cases. But its so rare that its mention really serves no purpose.

Secondly, it should be noted that a specific barn quality (most notably hay and leather) can arise naturally without deliberate human manipulation being the cause, in the case of Bengali, Indian oils, and (some) Burmese oils. These oils will have an intrinsic sweet hay note (intrinsic to the wood itself).

Thirdly, certain animalic notes can also be intrinsic to some batches of wood. Again, this is the exception and not the rule. But in certain cases (e.g. far far North Indian wood), it is in fact a salient feature of the wood. Case in point: Chugoku Senkoh. It has an animal element which is COMPLETELY different from more typical funky Indian oils. But this element is more perfumey in nature, like musk, ambergris, hyraceum (especially this), and so on… and what you’ll notice is that these animalics are very different from (and actually have a place in perfumery), when compared to something like carcasses and animal excrement and freshly peeled hides. Another case in point: Adam’s Borneo Adventure II. It has a mind-boggling musky animalic element, but again, it is intrinsic to that wood. I have in my bedroom (air-conditioned 24/7 = no rot/fungus infestation) a small bag of some Borneo wood which I regularly heat, and it naturally has this aroma as well.
So a distinction needs to be made between intrinsic perfumey-animalics vs funky/fecal/animalic smells that arise from nothing but bad hygiene.

Finally, a distinction must be made between fermentation and rotting. Just like fermented food is not the same as spoilt food, so too is fermented oud not the same as spoilt oud.

And now, on to the more serious issues-
It is important to note that what you see in the video is after a mere 1.5 weeks of soaking post-distillation in a copper pot. Let me break that down:

1) 1.5 weeks: hardly anything, compared to how long the wood is soaked for, in the case of conventional funky oils (usually a minimum of 3 weeks, and in most cases way way more - months)

2) copper: is itself a disinfectant that deters microbial activity. Typical soaking is done in plastic drums (Cambodia, Thailand) or cemented pools in the ground (India, Laos). You start to see fuzzies and slime and sludge starting to develop within a couple days. The maggots make an appearance soon after.

3) this is POST-DISTILLATION: and so the water inside the pot actually cycled through the entire distillation system and passed through the collected oil layer (oud oil being a natural disinfectant) at least 8-10 times while the distillation was running. Not only was the water I used in this distillation drinking-grade to begin with, but it got boiled (distilled) in copper (a natural disinfectant) AND it further passed through the ‘disinfecting filter’ (the layer of oil collected). And yet, you see what you see. On the other hand, typical soaking is usually done using ground water.

My takeaway from your post (on Facebook) is that Hindi Oud does not inherently smell barnyard, and that the traditional barnyard quality is mostly a result of a manipulated and corrupted distilling process (soaking, fermentation etc...). Your categorical and matter-of-fact statements, coupled with the video, left me powerless but to interpret your post as a condemnation of barnyard Hindi.

Now this is certainly true, and its no secret. I, Taha, feel very strongly about this topic. Although I would slightly reword it to say ‘human-engineered barnyard’ instead of just barnyard (since hay and leather can be intrinsic to the wood / raw material). Sadly, its almost always human-engineered.

As for barny oils that are that way due to fermentation (rarer), they shouldn’t really be lopped into the same category as oils that smell that way due to rotting (the typical case).
For ME, Taha, yes, I view BOTH as having been manipulated by human intervention and in my present stage in the oud biz, I view them as one and the same. But I am the first to admit that due to what I have seen and been through, I have an obsessive tendency towards purity and pristineness. Once you have seen first-hand death and suffering and the sheer difficulty of acquiring high quality agarwood, I think you too would be instilled with so much awe and reverence for this rare substance, that you would not want to tamper with its aroma.
But that’s just me. I cannot enforce that view on others.
And so I’m quiet on fermented oud (which I see as being 'oud perfume'). My war is on rotted oud which I consider outright abuse and disrespect.

An interesting fact bite: once absolutely no more oil comes out during a distillation, if you kill the flame and let the wood marinate for a couple weeks in the pot and rot kicks in, you can light the flame again and resume distillation; typically you’ll get 5-10% extra yield (e.g. if you got a 150ml pristine yield, you can get up to 15ml more after the maggots have at it).

Foot note:
In almost all cases, I too soak the wood before distilling. But there are ways to do it without tampering with the aroma. Adam and Ensar have mentioned several of those numerous times already, so no need to list them again.
Also, an important distinction should be made between clean/dirty soaking and clean/dirty apparatus. Oils distilled in 99.9999999999999999999% of the apparatus in the world used for distilling oud are filthy. They are coated on the inside with old sticky oil, a wonderful insect trap, and aged dead-insect paste. This is the reason why I do a thorough washing of all the apparatus after every single distillation, despite the fact that it inflicts physical harm (I developed a hernia), because you're talking about hauling a 550 lb loaded pot. There’s a photo of me from November that I could post here but I’d rather not. So, if you want to see it, drop me a PM. Then ponder WHY I would go through this extremely hard and annoying cleaning and washing, and why distillers will typically (and understandably) not want to do it.
Answer: a quick insert & twist of a bottle cleaning brush into the nooks and crannies of distillation apparatus in South East Asia will remind you… that this is South East Asia! Everything grows here. Especially in nooks and crannies.

 

[Taha]

Very relevant and timely questions to raise @Philip. I guess much of the confusion would be dispelled if it was pointed out that this was not some random vat encountered in a nondescript distillery, but Taha's own pot, in his own house, post-distillate & cooking water left to 'germinate' for days on end, without any kind of covering. It bears pointing out that, unlike most soaking vats, the pot is metal (either copper or steel).

It was covered (closed) actually.
If it was uncovered, I suspect there would have been a lot more of the cotton-candy type of growth which I've seen in open soak vats, which is completely absent here.

 

[Ensar Oud]

Let me preface this by saying, Taha and I agreed a long time ago that we don't need to agree on everything. That's right. In fact, we disagree on a whole LOT of things. And here is where I must voice my skepticism toward some of the objections to 'barn' that make up his particular philosophy of 'cleanliness.'

Now, from what I understand, this forum is open to ALL vendors to advertise and posit their Weltanschauungs. As a natural consequence of that, some dialogue is going to be unavoidable. Some claims are going to be questioned, examined, discussed, and then questioned some more. Others are accepted as fact without any questioning. Let me further preface my comments here: I write all of what ensues as a USER of oud, NOT as producer or vendor. The one talking here is Ensar the kraut-craving, Kombucha-downing, probiotic & prebiotic-ODing nut. NOT the producer of the Oriscent line (more distinctions between what constitutes 'Oriscent' and how EO distillations are different to follow in a separate thread).

Interesting fact: While prolonged soaking is an integral component of Taha's Gen3 line, it is the total absence of soaking that defines my most prized oils. So, I'm not saying any of this as a proponent of 'the soak'.

Interesting fact: My Chinese distillers have a 'code name' for all fermentation / soak / barnyard notes. In our circle, they're referred to as the 'shit smell' oils. My teachers are SO averse to any kind of soaking whatsover—even minutes of soaking the wood before distillation—that anything even minimally soaked is termed 'shit smell'. Again, read what follows as mere thoughts from a fellow onlooker to the discussion—not the words of someone with a vested interest in marketing 'the soak' as an integral part their distillation philosophy.

I'll let you all know as soon as I write the rest of this post.

 

[Taha]

Oh yeah totally. In fact, like I’ve said before, frankly I don’t understand why anyone even soaks wood prior to distillation, other than for the reason I do, or for an intentional fermentation (art), or for economical reasons (sometimes fermentation but usually rot).
I know that you do unsoaked for the most part and as the general rule, and some ‘art’ / fermentation soaked distillations in some rare cases here and there, so I hope you didn’t see my post as even a slight hint of a jab at you.
It’s the mass-market pipeline that’s pumping out junk that neither political correctness nor actual enjoyment (God forbid) would prevent me from censuring.

Side note to everyone: in the oud world we often run into the same people, and if there’s one thing you learn when you talk to folks who’ve distilled EO oils in the past, it’s that his OCD does drive them mad haha.
I have no doubt he would never approve of a maggot-oud distillation and put the EO stamp on it.

But as for fermentation, then yes that is an area we agree to disagree. And as far as I know, all other vendors too. I’ve done it in the past, but where I stand right now, I just don’t think straight agarwood needs to be tinkered tweaked or tampered with in any way.
Like I said, that’s a Taha thing, and I don’t enforce this on any one.