The Maggot Thread

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Taha

Well-Known Member
#61
Well, I think there was a huge (and totally understandable) uproar because some folks thought I wanted to collect donations. I absolutely refuse to accept a single peso, because that is a conflict of interest and frankly, no matter how well any of you may know me, it is simply not a good idea for me to accept any donations because I have a vested interest in these teams and their success.

Habz was the first to come up with the donation idea, and then Ouddict contacted me to pitch it. I thanked him, because it is a noble thing to try to help out someone in need. But as I explained to him, it simply "wouldn't work", it would get messy (exactly what I feared, is exactly what happened). And so, he would have to figure out a way, if its even possible, to somehow get the funds to the family of the deceased with absolutely zero Taha presence in any step of the process. I'm not sure how that's even possible since I won't divulge any names, I've already seen where divulging names of my (ex) distillers got me! :p

At any rate, "actions are judged by intentions", and anyone who felt the urge to help those folks out, that's wonderful! Aside from prayers and sending positive thoughts their way though, I don't see how any form of financial help is possible.

One gentleman had analogized the deceased chap to a robber who's killed during a robbery. I'd like to let him know that in the Philippines I got the permit from the DENR and Quarantine departments (obtained in 2017, and still valid), and that this legal right to fell trees extends to anyone in my employ. So whatever you feel towards me, please don't direct that negative energy towards the guy who passed away, or the family he left behind. Aside from the 2 teams' ignoring my urges to NOT go for the hunt during the rainy season because it gets extremely dangerous (it was raining almost non-stop, with only short breaks here and there), he did nothing that would warrant your scorn.
As for me, then yes I have the right to be frustrated because the teams had gone against my express instruction to NOT proceed until the end of March (end of rainy season). But if I, who took the financial hit, don't have negative feelings towards the teams, I'm sure you can manage to dissolve yours away too.

Side note:
back when I posted the photos, even in the remotest furthest limits of my remotest imagination I had never fathomed someone would have come to the conclusion that I'm trying to 'capitalize' on these tragedies. I find it very disturbing. I also think perhaps such folks are not aware of some of the disasters in 2016 and 2017. Not once did I *ever* ask for donations, in fact I hardly ever even share them with anyone except some folks who I regularly talk to on the phone/WhatsApp.
So please take this opportunity now, realizing how treacherous it is to get high quality agarwood, to grasp the actual message I was trying to convey: this stuff is precious. So treasure what you have, and give it the respect it deserves.
 
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kesiro

Well-Known Member
#62
back when I posted the photos, even in the remotest furthest limits of my remotest imagination I had never fathomed someone would have come to the conclusion that I'm trying to 'capitalize' on these tragedies.
Nobody in their right mind would, hence PEARL's comments. And mine as well.
 

kooolaid79

Well-Known Member
#63
back when I posted the photos, even in the remotest furthest limits of my remotest imagination I had never fathomed someone would have come to the conclusion that I'm trying to 'capitalize' on these tragedies. I find it very disturbing. I also think perhaps such folks are not aware of some of the disasters in 2016 and 2017. Not once did I *ever* ask for donations, in fact I hardly ever even share them with anyone except some folks who I regularly talk to on the phone/WhatsApp.
So please take this opportunity now, realizing how treacherous it is to get high quality agarwood, to grasp the actual message I was trying to convey: this stuff is precious. So treasure what you have, and give it the respect it deserves.
Well some of those OTHER guys get pleasure on mocking and think that everything is made up. For such people it’s not even worth mentioning what they said and did. They are ignorant people who have no business in this world of Oud. They don’t understand the depth of this art, the sheer connection it has with your mind, body, and soul. How do you expect them to gain any knowledge and wisdom from the ones that create the oil? Those guys are laughable and instead of taking to heart forget them. We pray for those who lost their lives that may the Almighty grant patience to the immediate families and to the near and dear ones.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#64
So long as emotions are stirred, no learning can happen. Whoever wants to teach anything must ensure they don't stir up any feelings in the process, or the effort is wasted. There were some extremely important points raised during the course of the recent debate, but I think all is lost. Partisanship leads to prejudice, and prejudice is the antithesis of learning. I thought this topic was officially closed, until @AZsmell pointed out his occasional preference of a 'maggot Hindi' in the Survival thread…

Let me make abundantly clear, there are NO maggots in agarwood soaking vats, in India or elsewhere. It is misinformation, and simply not true. I have never seen: maggots, larvae, rot, decay, or anything 'disgusting' happen in any of the distilleries I've worked with in the last 14 years. I am not saying it is impossible. But I've soaked wood for up to six months, out in the open, without any cooling or temperature control, stirring the material daily, and have not witnessed anything growing or emerging from the soak drum. In the end, the desired effect was not even reached, as once we went past the 3-month mark, the 'barn' disappeared altogether to make way for a strong tobacco leaf aroma that smelled as if you'd soaked for 10-14 days with just a tad more depth. (Note: I've only soaked for that long once, as part of an experiment. I don't condone any amount of soaking for agarwood oil. I hope my defense of it is taken for what it is, and not something other than what it is.)

Why did the larvae come about in Taha's post-distillate when it was left to germinate? 1) Post-distillate doesn't equate to clean, dry pre-distillation dust. 2) Soaking in copper is like turbocharging the fermentation process. I'm aware of the supposed 'antibacterial' properties etc, however in practice, copper accelerates fermentation; it doesn't inhibit it. To the extent that a one-day soak in copper equals a 7-10 day soak in plastic or ceramic. A 2-day copper soak = one-month normal soak. 4-day copper soak = 2-month ceramic soak. And so on. Try it, and you will see. I thought my days of sharing technical information were over, given the amount of problems it's caused me in the past. In light of the current 'controversy' though, I have no choice but to divulge the copper soak technique: The fact that the material was post-distillate and kept in a copper pot was the probable trigger of the larvae germination. I can't think of a more plausible explanation.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#65
I wish there was a ‘highlight text’ option on the forum, because I would then request you to highlight this portion:
Ensar said:
But I've soaked wood for up to six months, out in the open, without any cooling or temperature control, stirring the material daily, and have not witnessed anything growing or emerging from the soak drum.
Its SOoo important for anyone who sees my original and followup posts, to also read about your first-hand direct experience to the contrary, before they make up their minds.

Having said that, I’ll also share my first-hand experience with 15 experimental distillations back in Dec '14...
10682285_717931028302549_4965620446332684822_o.jpg
(click to zoom)

Without getting into every single detail, the aim was to see the effects of: (1) using different grades of wood (shavings, oil grade, chips), ceteris paribus (2) change in soaking parameters (drinking water vs rain water vs NO soaking) ceteris paribus, and (3) change in soaking material (ceramic vs copper vs steel).

The amount of experimentation I did doesn't even come close to the amount of experimentation (and permutations WITHIN each experiment!) that you have conducted.
With that said, what I observed is:
1) growth started in the ceramic-soaked batch on day 2, where the water used was rain water. Its sister batch (copper-soaked for 3 days) showed no growth. Both were immediately cooked together side by side, to see the resulting effect on the aroma.
2) growth started in the ceramic-soaked batch on day 6, where the water used was reverse osmosis. Its sister batch (steel-soaked for 6 days, after a thorough strip+wash) displayed only the beginning signs (film of slime with some blotches). Both were immediately cooked together side by side, to see the resulting effect on the aroma.
3) all the pots were covered while soaking, because I'd already seen stuff like cotton candy, slime, sludge, and maggots before, in Yusof's typical uncovered plastic soaking drums.
4) the other permutations aren’t relevant to the discussion at hand.

So my findings (although contrary) in no way negate yours, because your observations are true, and also based on actual first-hand observations.
As are mine. :D

To reconcile the apparent contradiction, I can only postulate that the speed of microbial growth is exponentially accelerated when lower grade wood is used (my long soaked experimental batches were all oil-grade wood distillations, I didn't dare to fool around with the incense grade woods), whereas with higher quality wood (which I’m sure is what you used for your batches with prolonged soaks) the wood itself “fights off” the nasties because it intrinsically possesses more antiseptic qualities (the oleoresin!). And this would actually coincide with, and affirm, your second point, namely, when you pointed out that the wood in my video is exhaust wood (i.e. devoid of antiseptic oleoresin) hence the accelerated nastiness.
And my second guess is that its a species thing. Malaccensis (which was used in all 15 of these experiments) having one of the hardest resins, probably has poor antiseptic properties. This is probably also why East Borneo (Malaccensis) oil can smell like horse piss if the wood was soaked for a single day, whereas a Cambodian (softer resin) is more resilient and can withstand far longer soaks.

I must confess though, that I am surprised you have never seen maggot broths in your 14 years of traveling and distilling. I have seen far more than I wished to (in the very same location as the above-mentioned experiments, Pasir Panjang, and elsewhere). I think Adam also posted somewhere about this, in fact right here on Gaharu I think. The emergence of maggots IS in fact the green signal for that boosted yield (up to 10% in my experience, lol yes… I’ve tried it), i.e. the distiller can commence distillation.

At any rate though, neither your oils nor any other online vendor’s oils would fall under this category. We are talking about the mass market category, the type for which.. when I had once approached the operator of a large plant to ‘rent’ once I move out and can’t do home distillations any more, he asked “how many tonnes of wood per cycle?”, and practically choked with laughter when I told him the MAXIMUM I could do (my one whole month being a fraction of just one of his single 3-day cycles). I’m talking about milk white wood which is turned black with rot – and the distillation is not, CAN not, commence until the lil’ maggots wave the green flag.
Sans rot, nothing would come out of that wood.

Side note: this particular man, by the way, is a leading supplier to some big companies and so I won’t say his name. But you can see what type of oil I am referring to, and what hyperbolic case (and why) I’m using, for the actual point which I’m sure by now most folks picked up on.

And speaking of that actual point…

Ensar said:
I hope my defense of it is taken for what it is, and not something other than what it is.
You don’t have to worry about me, I am FULLY aware you are playing the devil’s advocate. That is the best 'tool' you can use to make this discussion meaningful, and so once again I applaud you for that. And I want to remind others as well, not to overlook this fact.

And speaking of 'tools'…

Don’t forget that I, too, am using a tool (hyperbole), to get across a message that is... (surprise, surprise, folks!) not so different from Ensar's own personal belief / opinion / taste. ;)

As for AZSmells’ post, ha..!! Don’t mind him. He’s a funny guy, and he was just joking around. He actually does love a bunch of fermented oud oils just like he loves ‘clean’ oils, so I can promise you he wasn’t being sarcastic with that comment (but I’m sure WAS being sarcastic about actual maggot oils). ;)
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#67
By the way, in case someone STILL hasn't figured it out...
The upshot of what I'm actually arguing for, is the supremacy of the likes of Kyara LTD, Borneo Diesel, etc.

And so, I urge you all to please not lose sight of the fact that the chap who's playing the devil's advocate is none other than the vendor whose oils I (deliberately, and solely) just mentioned.
Like Rasoul mentioned earlier, my aim was to start something fruitful (yes, with Bollywood style melodrama at first, because dramatization helps grab attention). Emotions got a bit intense and things got a bit messy. But not to worry. With a 'worthy adversary' to keep me in check, only benefit (education and deeper understanding and deeper appreciation) can come from it.

And not just for the top shelf stuff.
But also more affordable oils which ANY distiller manages to craft, that extol what they are: the extract of one of the most precious substances on earth.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#68
By the way, in case someone STILL hasn't figured it out...
The upshot of what I'm actually arguing for is the supremacy of the likes of Kyara LTD, Borneo Diesel, etc.

And so, I urge you all to please not lose sight of the fact that the chap who's playing the devil's advocate is none other than the vendor whose oils I (deliberately, and solely) just mentioned.
Like Rasoul mentioned earlier, my aim was to start something fruitful (yes, with Bollywood style melodrama at first, because dramatization helps grab attention). Emotions got a bit intense and things got a bit messy. But not to worry. With a 'worthy adversary' to keep me in check, only benefit (education and deeper understanding and deeper appreciation) can come from it.

And not just for the top shelf stuff.
But also more affordable oils which ANY distiller manages to craft, that extol what they are: the extract of one of the most precious substances on earth.
As you once told me on the phone (Ace Ventura voice): "Whenever you have any misgivings about me, just remember—I am Taha!" :D
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
#69
:D...

But, also...

Oh no!
:eek:

If the most fleeting of fleeting notions even fleetingly fleeted by for you, then I think its high time I spell it all out, because others are inevitably bound to reach the wrong conclusions about the intent of my recent posts.

As a preface, I will first daringly assert (having never seen nor smelled Hailam LTD) that not in a hundred life times would Ensar have ever dared to ferment, let alone rot, the raw material.
Am I right, or am I right?
And I would now further boldly assert, with no prior knowledge or chat with Ensar re this (except the knowledge that such raw material is far too costly to warp or abuse) that Ensar would never have done that in a hundred lifetimes with the raw material for Borneo Diesel, Nha Trang LTD, or Royal Kinam either.
Am I right, or am I right?

Moving on-

@m.arif is the ONLY one here who has seen me right after I have returned from a jungle trek. He can tell you what my mental and physical (and financial, ha!) states are like, or how I use oud for therapy just to cope with what these treks do to me. Now keep in mind, I'm always guarded on all sides by the hunters I take with me (heck, I am actually a BURDEN for the rest of the team, they are the ones that chop away the eye-gouging vines and fend off flying snake attacks), it is still quite a tough ordeal. Just imagine... these folks that regularly lose eyes/limbs/their lives... are sons of the jungle. Its their backyard.
When I return back from a trek, even bunk (white) agarwood, so long as its wild, is precious to me.

True story:
within a week after a very painful (and futile) hunt, I had a visit from a guy from a 'mass market oud' country. Despite knowing the horrors I had just been through and what the team I had left behind was still going through (in Borneo in this case, Jan/Feb 2017), he asked me for a massive discount. I told him, okay how about I wipe out my entire profit, he said yes that would be lovely (keep in mind, this grade gets sold for 400% the price, and he himself laughed in embarrassment as he admitted to that). After I punched the calculator and told him that comes to around 5% discount, he responded that it wasn't good enough. I sarcastically asked him if he'd like me to line up my hunters, one with a missing eye, one with a missing finger, one who's brother died hunting and so on, and then he could ask them one by one if they are willing to give up their profit shares as well.. to my horror, the guy said yes. :(
Utterly disgusted naturally, I nevertheless whipped out my phone and dialed the hunter phone numbers one by one on speaker phone. No surprise... no response. They were in the depths of Long Seridan, where there is no cell reception.
He ended up reluctantly paying 50% deposit at the decided-upon price (i.e. zero profit for me). This was my final Malaysia harvest batch.
(side note: it is now March 15, 2018. I have still not received the remaining 50% for that 1.3kg of baby king grade wood)

So it is THIS consumer mentality, the kind of person who has absolutely no respect for wild agarwood, and its preciousness and rarity in this day and age, that has driven me to the obsessive (and yes, I have fully acknowledged and admitted to this over-obsessiveness before) mindset that values preserving the utterly un-warped aroma and essence of wild agarwood.
Once you understand this, and where this is coming from, you can then understand my dismay when I see that to this day, some folks still fail to accept the fact that even the most green and inexperienced distiller learns within a mere month, namely: that what is considered the "traditional" and "true" scent of oud oil is actually a product of human intervention (minimum: fermentation, maximum: rot, and by now hopefully everyone is clear on why I deliberately and hyperbolically used ROT to drive my point home). And although I am still unclear about the difference between 'feminine' and 'feminist' oud that dear Ammar pointed out, well, either way, if a true-to-life replica of rare vintage batches of wild wood is described with either of those adjectives, then the problem is even more serious than just a misunderstanding about human-engineered barn.

Pause.
Necessary interjection: you guys haven't forgotten that Ensar is just playing the devil's advocate right?

Resume.

Ensar, please continue to wear the helmet and bear the arms of the "worthy adversary". You are representing not just yourself but other distillers and vendors as well in doing so, because I am the first to brazenly acknowledge that my obsessiveness is obsessive, and it is myopic, and that my focus is on a very tiny and specific sub-category of oud.

I am sure that between your (and my) repeated reminders, by now it is clear to everyone where your personal preference lies. But also the fact that where you and I differ is that you won't let your personal preference stop you from utilizing soaks or whatever else, to create oud art (and yes guys, there is more to it than just copper vs steel, soaked vs unsoaked). After all, one can (rightly) argue that roasted coffee beans make for a tastier beverage than chewing on raw green coffee beans! :D
In a sense, in reality you are an even bigger 'puritan extremist', I was shocked to read that even mere minutes of the wood sitting in the pot is 'problematic' for you (for that particular category of oud oils). But for the sake of all the readers, continue to defend the art wing of artisanal distillation. Be it fermentation of the wood, the mineral composition of the water for cooking (not soaking) for specific desired effects, or anything else, like the use of techniques which result in 1+1=3 (the oil turning out superior to the raw material).

My war is not artistic expressions of oud, including fermented oud (although for ME, Taha, in 2018, it is the furthest limit of acceptability to me). But my war IS on rotted/abused oud, and also on misinformation, disinformation and ignorance-based incorrect assumptions. THOSE are my primary foes, and I won't back down from attacking those.

Footnote: I have hand-cooked, personally, at home (one of them just feet away from my bed), two batches of Indian oud. I am fully aware that in some rare batches of Indian wood (like the first of the two oils that I have hand-cooked), even if the wood was washed and distilled in the tears of angels, it will have a certain very specific type of barnyard element (hay and soft suggestions of suede). Even rarer: batches which have intrinsic animalic elements (the likes of Chugoku Senkoh, namely "perfume animalics" like notes of musk, ambergris etc). When I refer to human-engineered barnyard, I am not referring to these. So please guys... no fallacy of equivocation. Do not use those extremely unusual batches with intrinsic barn to defend what any distiller with the experience of just a SINGLE distillation under his belt knows is clearly and blatantly a human-engineered barn character. I have personally hand-cooked more oils than I can remember. So yes, I am speaking from experience guys. My stained bedroom wall can attest to that. :)
This is not about what is better or what is worse. It is about understanding the difference between the manipulated vs un-manipulated smell of oud. It is about better (and properly) understanding the oud that you possess.

And the beauty of it all is... Ensar and I disagree on many things. Just as he and Imperial do. And I and Shareef do. And Zak and Adam do. And so on and so forth.
(did I leave anyone out?)
This is NOT about me insisting you should only buy my oils (I promise you, I have refused to sell oils to many customers, either because I don't want to burden their wallet, or because I feel oil XYZ won't be their cup of tea, or because I felt it would be an unnecessary overlap with an oil already in their collection).
Rather, this is about EDUCATION and RESPECT of oud.

/facepalm
I think from now on, I should either ONLY post massive essays with everything super duper clear from the get go (mini essays just won't do), or succinct bullet points without beating around the bush. :p

Can you believe I've never been to such a huge, industrial-scale distillery? That could be the reason… All our distilleries are tiny and very well kept, compared to what you're describing.
I hope Adam will post his experiences soon, I know he's seen it as well. This is the NORM that I have seen. Maggot broths simmering outdoors, and containers holding gallons of "oud" uncapped indoors (force oxidizing to kill the nasty notes).
To bring you down to earth, need I remind you... you are not even a speck in the big picture of global "oud" consumption. All the online vendors combined wouldn't be a speck. There are thousands of gallons of "oud" oils in the market. You know better than anyone that its impossible to make real oud (without "quotes") oils in such staggering volumes.
And even if that were possible, you would then be heard squealing, shoulders shrugged, "but with what moneeeeeeeee?"
No, its UNpossible.

As you once told me on the phone (Ace Ventura voice): "Whenever you have any misgivings about me, just remember—I am Taha!" :D
Just once? ;)
I think the last time we spoke on the phone, I was in a heavily drugged state, and I had said it then too haha.
 
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AZsmell

Active Member
#70
Yes let me clarify. I don't like maggots in my oud. That was a joke. What I meant is that I like what some would refer to as "barnyard" ouds. The likes of Oud Khidr, Assam Black, Purana, etc which are so potent but so wonderful. I also like the new age ouds like Lavanya. They all have a special place depending on my mood.
 

kooolaid79

Well-Known Member
#72
Hearing the story about that guy who wanted a huge discount and made you call your hunters is totally disgusting and demeaning in the worst way possible and on top of that he still hasn’t paid back your due right. Those people are fake and have no business in the world of Oud, whether that means selling woods/oils, distributing, or promoting it. Shame on them for trying to earn way I mean way beyond the profit margin of the distillers and hunters combined.
 
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m.arif

Active Member
#73
:D...

@m.arif is the ONLY one here who has seen me right after I have returned from a jungle trek. .
You mean the time you got some unknown weird sickness from the jungle and the home was filled with LCX vapours from the ultrasonic diffuser? Exhaustion was only the appetizer.
And we're talking about the fitness geek Mr Taha who goes to the Gym everyday and can carry a loaded pot with water and 25kg of wood dust , on his own . I might've mistook you for a gym owner cum instructor had I not known about Agar Aura.

Well, those were very fragrant visits indeed...the whole home (very big open space ) was filled with Oud vapours from your diffuser..How many bottles did you use up at that time? Was it LCX?

I suddenly remember the Malay hunters that came by the other day, you were trying to convince them to go deeper and stay for more than a week in the jungle. It's scary in there, and their worries were reasonable to say the least. Too bad nothing came up from the meeting with them..
 

Larry K.

Active Member
#74
:D...

But, also...

Oh no!
:eek:

If the most fleeting of fleeting notions even fleetingly fleeted by for you, then I think its high time I spell it all out, because others are inevitably bound to reach the wrong conclusions about the intent of my recent posts.

As a preface, I will first daringly assert (having never seen nor smelled Hailam LTD) that not in a hundred life times would Ensar have ever dared to ferment, let alone rot, the raw material.
Am I right, or am I right?
And I would now further boldly assert, with no prior knowledge or chat with Ensar re this (except the knowledge that such raw material is far too costly to warp or abuse) that Ensar would never have done that in a hundred lifetimes with the raw material for Borneo Diesel, Nha Trang LTD, or Royal Kinam either.
Am I right, or am I right?

Moving on-

@m.arif is the ONLY one here who has seen me right after I have returned from a jungle trek. He can tell you what my mental and physical (and financial, ha!) states are like, or how I use oud for therapy just to cope with what these treks do to me. Now keep in mind, I'm always guarded on all sides by the hunters I take with me (heck, I am actually a BURDEN for the rest of the team, they are the ones that chop away the eye-gouging vines and fend off flying snake attacks), it is still quite a tough ordeal. Just imagine... these folks that regularly lose eyes/limbs/their lives... are sons of the jungle. Its their backyard.
When I return back from a trek, even bunk (white) agarwood, so long as its wild, is precious to me.

True story:
within a week after a very painful (and futile) hunt, I had a visit from a guy from a 'mass market oud' country. Despite knowing the horrors I had just been through and what the team I had left behind was still going through (in Borneo in this case, Jan/Feb 2017), he asked me for a massive discount. I told him, okay how about I wipe out my entire profit, he said yes that would be lovely (keep in mind, this grade gets sold for 400% the price, and he himself laughed in embarrassment as he admitted to that). After I punched the calculator and told him that comes to around 5% discount, he responded that it wasn't good enough. I sarcastically asked him if he'd like me to line up my hunters, one with a missing eye, one with a missing finger, one who's brother died hunting and so on, and then he could ask them one by one if they are willing to give up their profit shares as well.. to my horror, the guy said yes. :(
Utterly disgusted naturally, I nevertheless whipped out my phone and dialed the hunter phone numbers one by one on speaker phone. No surprise... no response. They were in the depths of Long Seridan, where there is no cell reception.
He ended up reluctantly paying 50% deposit at the decided-upon price (i.e. zero profit for me). This was my final Malaysia harvest batch.
(side note: it is now March 15, 2018. I have still not received the remaining 50% for that 1.3kg of baby king grade wood)

So it is THIS consumer mentality, the kind of person who has absolutely no respect for wild agarwood, and its preciousness and rarity in this day and age, that has driven me to the obsessive (and yes, I have fully acknowledged and admitted to this over-obsessiveness before) mindset that values preserving the utterly un-warped aroma and essence of wild agarwood.
Once you understand this, and where this is coming from, you can then understand my dismay when I see that to this day, some folks still fail to accept the fact that even the most green and inexperienced distiller learns within a mere month, namely: that what is considered the "traditional" and "true" scent of oud oil is actually a product of human intervention (minimum: fermentation, maximum: rot, and by now hopefully everyone is clear on why I deliberately and hyperbolically used ROT to drive my point home). And although I am still unclear about the difference between 'feminine' and 'feminist' oud that dear Ammar pointed out, well, either way, if a true-to-life replica of rare vintage batches of wild wood is described with either of those adjectives, then the problem is even more serious than just a misunderstanding about human-engineered barn.

Pause.
Necessary interjection: you guys haven't forgotten that Ensar is just playing the devil's advocate right?

Resume.

Ensar, please continue to wear the helmet and bear the arms of the "worthy adversary". You are representing not just yourself but other distillers and vendors as well in doing so, because I am the first to brazenly acknowledge that my obsessiveness is obsessive, and it is myopic, and that my focus is on a very tiny and specific sub-category of oud.

I am sure that between your (and my) repeated reminders, by now it is clear to everyone where your personal preference lies. But also the fact that where you and I differ is that you won't let your personal preference stop you from utilizing soaks or whatever else, to create oud art (and yes guys, there is more to it than just copper vs steel, soaked vs unsoaked). After all, one can (rightly) argue that roasted coffee beans make for a tastier beverage than chewing on raw green coffee beans! :D
In a sense, in reality you are an even bigger 'puritan extremist', I was shocked to read that even mere minutes of the wood sitting in the pot is 'problematic' for you (for that particular category of oud oils). But for the sake of all the readers, continue to defend the art wing of artisanal distillation. Be it fermentation of the wood, the mineral composition of the water for cooking (not soaking) for specific desired effects, or anything else, like the use of techniques which result in 1+1=3 (the oil turning out superior to the raw material).

My war is not artistic expressions of oud, including fermented oud (although for ME, Taha, in 2018, it is the furthest limit of acceptability to me). But my war IS on rotted/abused oud, and also on misinformation, disinformation and ignorance-based incorrect assumptions. THOSE are my primary foes, and I won't back down from attacking those.

Footnote: I have hand-cooked, personally, at home (one of them just feet away from my bed), two batches of Indian oud. I am fully aware that in some rare batches of Indian wood (like the first of the two oils that I have hand-cooked), even if the wood was washed and distilled in the tears of angels, it will have a certain very specific type of barnyard element (hay and soft suggestions of suede). Even rarer: batches which have intrinsic animalic elements (the likes of Chugoku Senkoh, namely "perfume animalics" like notes of musk, ambergris etc). When I refer to human-engineered barnyard, I am not referring to these. So please guys... no fallacy of equivocation. Do not use those extremely unusual batches with intrinsic barn to defend what any distiller with the experience of just a SINGLE distillation under his belt knows is clearly and blatantly a human-engineered barn character. I have personally hand-cooked more oils than I can remember. So yes, I am speaking from experience guys. My stained bedroom wall can attest to that. :)
This is not about what is better or what is worse. It is about understanding the difference between the manipulated vs un-manipulated smell of oud. It is about better (and properly) understanding the oud that you possess.

And the beauty of it all is... Ensar and I disagree on many things. Just as he and Imperial do. And I and Shareef do. And Zak and Adam do. And so on and so forth.
(did I leave anyone out?)
This is NOT about me insisting you should only buy my oils (I promise you, I have refused to sell oils to many customers, either because I don't want to burden their wallet, or because I feel oil XYZ won't be their cup of tea, or because I felt it would be an unnecessary overlap with an oil already in their collection).
Rather, this is about EDUCATION and RESPECT of oud.

/facepalm
I think from now on, I should either ONLY post massive essays with everything super duper clear from the get go (mini essays just won't do), or succinct bullet points without beating around the bush. :p

I hope Adam will post his experiences soon, I know he's seen it as well. This is the NORM that I have seen. Maggot broths simmering outdoors, and containers holding gallons of "oud" uncapped indoors (force oxidizing to kill the nasty notes).
To bring you down to earth, need I remind you... you are not even a speck in the big picture of global "oud" consumption. All the online vendors combined wouldn't be a speck. There are thousands of gallons of "oud" oils in the market. You know better than anyone that its impossible to make real oud (without "quotes") oils in such staggering volumes.
And even if that were possible, you would then be heard squealing, shoulders shrugged, "but with what moneeeeeeeee?"
No, its UNpossible.

Just once? ;)
I think the last time we spoke on the phone, I was in a heavily drugged state, and I had said it then too haha.
“Flying snake attacks..”
Amazing how quickly I am cured of my desire to see a living Aquilaria tree.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#75
All the maggot talk is just a veil from a major 'sea change' we're all failing to pick up on that's taking place right under our nostrils: The demise of wild agarwood. And the emergence of artisanal plantation oils as the new standard.

You see, the real battle happening here is between wild and cultivated—not between soaked and unsoaked, 'respect' and 'disrespect'. Cultivated Vietnamese and cheap Cambodian stock are all dressed up in clean 'n pristine—while old wild stock is all rot 'n maggots......
 
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PEARL

Well-Known Member
#76
You see, the real battle happening here is between wild and cultivated—not between soaked and unsoaked, 'respect' and 'disrespect'.
Some oils transcend differences of agarwood species, locales, distillation 'techniques', age of trees, soaking methods and pot materials (copper, glass, steel). Oils that obliterate and remove barriers between wild-harvested and cultivated.

All dressed up in clean 'n pristine...
Clean and pristine powdery wood accords with a soft, delicate aura that perfumes the air around you.

The emergence of artisanal plantation oils as the new standard.
In the right hands, cultivated oud can even surpass wild-harvested agarwood oil.

—while old wild stock is all rot 'n maggots......
I know of an oil and it is just as good, maybe even better than my former favorite--that old, wild stock, rot'n maggoty Oud N....I'll go have a swipe.

An enigma, oil and crafter; teach.
 

Kruger

Well-Known Member
#77
We received this email last night:

“selams, sidi, hope you're well. was curious to know if you came across taha's fairly recent post on 'barn' oils and what you thought. i didn't view his linked video but got the gist that there was something ugly behind the note a lot of us are fond of."

To the questioner’s defense, the hyperbole also went over my head.

The ‘note that a lot of us are fond of’ is not the barn note. Not for me, at least. At first, it’s easy to paint everything ‘funky’ with the barn brush, but now I don’t even think of Indian oud as barny. (Not in high-grade oils, at least. Cheap oil where the wood was fermented has a single cloying note. Then again, even the unsoaked ones do.) I process even heavy funk as a single note in a long song because in a high-grade distillation that’s all it is. Fermentation can ignite all sorts of tobacco, leather, kakao, and tie them all together in a rich agallochian spiciness………… that you’ve come to associate with barn. That’s why I’m always taken aback by people who react to oils like Assam 3000 with something like ‘I don’t like the barn smell’. Man, there is ZERO barn there! But I get it. They associate Agallocha with barn. Like associating Cambodis with fruit.

And that’s proof right there. Fermented Indian agarwood might smell like barn, but Cambodian wood doesn’t. It’s distinctly cheesy. Soaked Malaysian oils are extremely muddy. Sumatran oils… hairy o_O

This tells me that you do get a sense of the wood from/despite fermentation. To say it robs the wood of its ‘essence’ is going a bit far.

For argument’s sake, let’s say you do find some critters in your barrel (though, I’m surprised you do). Have you seen a scoby that makes kombucha? It’s not exactly an appetizing thing to look at. Does that mean making or drinking kombucha is me disrespecting tea leaves?

Preparation adds a flavor to your cuisine. Scrambled eggs taste nothing like raw eggs. Pickles taste nothing like cucumber. Am I disrespecting either eggs or cucumbers by preparing them one way and not the other? Two bites of cucumber and I’m done, but I can eat pickles all day long. And I’m not Ironman, so I never bother with a raw egg shake.

The upshot: oud oil is not about capturing the pristine scent of the gently heated chips. It can be—but it can also be MORE. That’s the beauty of distillation. Show me Sri Lankan chips that smell of mimosa, as soothing and cucumber cool. Neither is there a single walla chip that smells wholly and completely like the Platonic Walla.

That’s why I don’t believe Ensar was playing devil’s advocate. And why I don’t believe there is a pure, unmolested ‘essence’ of agarwood and the ideal is to capture that. Burning chips might have an essence, sure. The smell of kyara, absolutely. But oud oil… nah. It’s totally a 1 + 1 = 3 game. What would be ‘artisanal’ about it otherwise? And what about all your previous oils where it was about fruit and flowers and copper and steel, and red stage distillation was… disrespectful :p
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#78
Hey Thomas. I really like and appreciate your post. I guess where I am confused, and that is not a hard thing to accomplish given I am just a bone doctor, is with the notion that throughout this whole mess, there is an IDEAL. And I am speaking strictly from the consumers/enthusiasts perspective. There is no doubt there are different styles, techniques, and philosophies how to produce oud essential oil. So what, and pardon my profanity, who gives a shit? I don't see any as illegitimate nor have I seen any serious dismissiveness regarding one or the other in a serious way. If I missed it, I invoke the bone doctor excuse again. The tweaks to either maintain or embellish the smell of the resin/wood are all good in my book.
In most human interactions, and certainly where there is some conflict, there is usually a component of misunderstanding. Maybe there is some of that going on.
Myself, and everyone here benefit enormously from the teachings and wisdom that you, Ensar, Taha, and Adam bring. We all respect and appreciate your input. And most importantly, we have all admired and loved your respective creations, as different as they are in so many ways, and in some ways similar
So....... (everytime my wife starts a sentence with that, its always something bad, lol), different styles, preferences, desired oil end results leads to an enrichment of the oud experience. In the end, to me it is all about the oils. And that is the IDEAL.


And, I love and respect you all.
 

Larry K.

Active Member
#79
Hey Thomas. I really like and appreciate your post. I guess where I am confused, and that is not a hard thing to accomplish given I am just a bone doctor, is with the notion that throughout this whole mess, there is an IDEAL.
(Joke coming) Just the kind of ossified response one expects from a bone doctor! (Joke going)
 
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