The Oudh passion is still very much alive!!

[kooolaid79]

One of the things I don't understand is how people could come up with their allegations/opinions on something not being genuine. We have people like Taha who would sleep in jungles, get bit, malnutrition, and the whole nine yards. But to some, it is just a good old mockery over a cup of some synthetic tea/coffee.
One of the arguments we are hearing nowadays is that the line of new Oudh is no where near the old school style which was done way back in the day and everyone now are simply "amateurs". Even as far to say that the more modern artisinal oils are not even oud.
We know it is now possible to take out just the resin of the wood without all the other substances like lipids, waxes, and other wood debris? Not to mention, not soaking it for so long it ferments and develops growth of bacteria and/or molds. (You can't ingest classic Hindi but you can safely ingest oils like Ceylon 1.) So now there are new techniques that offer new types of ways to enjoy what Oud is: the essential oil of any species of the Agarwood tree. Discounting newer techniques and ways to extract/distill resin as unauthentic would be like discounting modern medicine advancements as 'unauthentic' compared to traditional therapeutic bloodlettings.
I mean airliners were running back in the day. My late grandfather who was a aircraft engineer made about 150 trips (he told me himself, that he stopped counting after 150 but made several more trips) to the US starting way back in the mid 50's on the super constellation (It truly is a beauty of a aircraft) but the amount of time which it would take him is no where near the comfort of what we have now. The new modern aircrafts are just simply bigger and better from seating to fuel consumption.
Having said that, if we have a distiller saying that, it is possible to do that and has done that, he's thrown underneath the garbage truck saying he's full of it.
If it was not for the current distillers we have now, half no wait 3/4 people would just be stuck on the best and only Oudh comes from India and Cambodia no where else on the planet.
The likes of Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, New Guinea, Sri Lanka, (Its just an oil not Oud LOL) Vietnam, and Borneo would have never touched our skin. These countries have/are producing some of the finest Oudh Oils but our noses and senses don't know that completely.
Let us open our minds and explore all the possible regions we can and not limit our minds to a one and specific Oudh type. Favorites will always be there but the work behind the scenes to make all these beauties well just ask @Kruger.

 

[kesiro]

You know my friend, there are some that just like to stir up controversy. This is one I have a hard time understanding. More 'modern/artisinal' oils are a combination of creativity and advancements in science and technology. I will admit I am a HUGE fan of old school Hindi Oils and have a bunch in my collection. They satisfy a certain craving like no other. But on the other hand, the psychoactive properties of Vietnamese, Chinese, and most Filaria ouds have their own unique place. All are oud by definition, but as you pointed out, Oud being the essential oil numerous species of trees which secrete a resin after being infected by a mold, the new brand of oleoresin oils are actually more OUD then the old world style ouds which have a lot of other components besides just the resin.
Sri Lankan tree is Gyrinops and not Aquilaria but is still regarded as an agarwood tree. So resin extracted from these trees is still oud.

I like them all. Respect for tradition but openness for the new. It may be fun to take a horse drawn carriage ride every once in a while, but I'll rather take my 707HP bad kitty to get me around any day of the week.

 

[Nikhil S]

We all have multiple Ouds in our collection yet we have our favourites. Whats wrong in having favourites ? Or whats wrong with having opinions about anything at all ? You have yours. There will be comparison of Ouds. Its a subjective matter. And there's nothing wrong with it. And if that matters why do we have legends/heritage oils section on mutiple vendors' pages ? When the Oud is getting bigger and better. Why even care about selling oils for 4500 or 3000 bucks ?

 

[Ensar Oud]

One of the things I don't understand is how people could come up with their allegations/opinions on something not being genuine. We have people like Taha who would sleep in jungles, get bit, malnutrition, and the whole nine yards. But to some, it is just a good old mockery over a cup of some synthetic tea/coffee.
One of the arguments we are hearing nowadays is that the line of new Oudh is no where near the old school style which was done way back in the day and everyone now are simply "amateurs". Even as far to say that the more modern artisinal oils are not even oud.
We know it is now possible to take out just the resin of the wood without all the other substances like lipids, waxes, and other wood debris? Not to mention, not soaking it for so long it ferments and develops growth of bacteria and/or molds. (You can't ingest classic Hindi but you can safely ingest oils like Ceylon 1.) So now there are new techniques that offer new types of ways to enjoy what Oud is: the essential oil of any species of the Agarwood tree. Discounting newer techniques and ways to extract/distill resin as unauthentic would be like discounting modern medicine advancements as 'unauthentic' compared to traditional therapeutic bloodlettings.
I mean airliners were running back in the day. My late grandfather who was a aircraft engineer made about 150 trips (he told me himself, that he stopped counting after 150 but made several more trips) to the US starting way back in the mid 50's on the super constellation (It truly is a beauty of a aircraft) but the amount of time which it would take him is no where near the comfort of what we have now. The new modern aircrafts are just simply bigger and better from seating to fuel consumption.
Having said that, if we have a distiller saying that, it is possible to do that and has done that, he's thrown underneath the garbage truck saying he's full of it.
If it was not for the current distillers we have now, half no wait 3/4 people would just be stuck on the best and only Oudh comes from India and Cambodia no where else on the planet.
The likes of Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, New Guinea, Sri Lanka, (Its just an oil not Oud LOL) Vietnam, and Borneo would have never touched our skin. These countries have/are producing some of the finest Oudh Oils but our noses and senses don't know that completely.
Let us open our minds and explore all the possible regions we can and not limit our minds to a one and specific Oudh type. Favorites will always be there but the work behind the scenes to make all these beauties well just ask @Kruger.

We all have multiple Ouds in our collection yet we have our favourites. Whats wrong in having favourites ? Or whats wrong with having opinions about anything at all ? You have yours. There will be comparison of Ouds. Its a subjective matter. And there's nothing wrong with it. And if that matters why do we have legends/heritage oils section on mutiple vendors' pages ? When the Oud is getting bigger and better. Why even care about selling oils for 4500 or 3000 bucks ?

To me, you're both basically saying the same thing.

 

[kesiro]

We all have multiple Ouds in our collection yet we have our favourites. Whats wrong in having favourites ? Or whats wrong with having opinions about anything at all ? You have yours. There will be comparison of Ouds. Its a subjective matter. And there's nothing wrong with it. And if that matters why do we have legends/heritage oils section on mutiple vendors' pages ? When the Oud is getting bigger and better. Why even care about selling oils for 4500 or 3000 bucks ?

Hello Nickhil! To address your questions directly one by one,
1)Nothing
2)Nothing
3) Why not?
4)I don't.

These were exactly my points, I guess a little too nuanced. The primary point of Koool's post I believe, and certainly of mine, was disagreeing with a viewpoint that anything different then the 'traditional' style or region, is not legitimate oud and similar notions.

 

[kesiro]

To me, you're both basically saying the same thing.

Hahahahah! You just beat me to it.!

 

[kooolaid79]

We all have multiple Ouds in our collection yet we have our favourites. Whats wrong in having favourites ? Or whats wrong with having opinions about anything at all ? You have yours. There will be comparison of Ouds. Its a subjective matter. And there's nothing wrong with it. And if that matters why do we have legends/heritage oils section on mutiple vendors' pages ? When the Oud is getting bigger and better. Why even care about selling oils for 4500 or 3000 bucks ?

Yes I agree it being subjective but can we make a specific/region oudh a objective and throw everything else out?

 

[Nikhil S]

Yes I agree it being subjective but can we make a specific/region oudh a objective and throw everything else out?

I know your intentions sir. And I do respect your objective stand on Oud. I totally agree with that. It's just that its just a way of saying things. Its like Mom saying you are my favourite child rest are useless. Its not even an argument as you have read on Ouddict. People will come and give their opinions. Some will come in and throw the "vendor" card. I don't think its worth reacting to. More hate will come. More meaningless discussions will come. Thats all. Rest is upto you. Cheers.

 

[Kruger]

One of the things I don't understand is how people could come up with their allegations/opinions on something not being genuine. We have people like Taha who would sleep in jungles, get bit, malnutrition, and the whole nine yards. But to some, it is just a good old mockery over a cup of some synthetic tea/coffee.
One of the arguments we are hearing nowadays is that the line of new Oudh is no where near the old school style which was done way back in the day and everyone now are simply "amateurs". Even as far to say that the more modern artisinal oils are not even oud.
We know it is now possible to take out just the resin of the wood without all the other substances like lipids, waxes, and other wood debris? Not to mention, not soaking it for so long it ferments and develops growth of bacteria and/or molds. (You can't ingest classic Hindi but you can safely ingest oils like Ceylon 1.) So now there are new techniques that offer new types of ways to enjoy what Oud is: the essential oil of any species of the Agarwood tree. Discounting newer techniques and ways to extract/distill resin as unauthentic would be like discounting modern medicine advancements as 'unauthentic' compared to traditional therapeutic bloodlettings.
I mean airliners were running back in the day. My late grandfather who was a aircraft engineer made about 150 trips (he told me himself, that he stopped counting after 150 but made several more trips) to the US starting way back in the mid 50's on the super constellation (It truly is a beauty of a aircraft) but the amount of time which it would take him is no where near the comfort of what we have now. The new modern aircrafts are just simply bigger and better from seating to fuel consumption.
Having said that, if we have a distiller saying that, it is possible to do that and has done that, he's thrown underneath the garbage truck saying he's full of it.
If it was not for the current distillers we have now, half no wait 3/4 people would just be stuck on the best and only Oudh comes from India and Cambodia no where else on the planet.
The likes of Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, New Guinea, Sri Lanka, (Its just an oil not Oud LOL) Vietnam, and Borneo would have never touched our skin. These countries have/are producing some of the finest Oudh Oils but our noses and senses don't know that completely.
Let us open our minds and explore all the possible regions we can and not limit our minds to a one and specific Oudh type. Favorites will always be there but the work behind the scenes to make all these beauties well just ask @Kruger.

@kooolaid79, your post pulls together a number of things I had intended to address, so now’s as good a time as any.

There have been posts elsewhere that assumed things about our distillation/extraction methods that were used as building blocks for entire pages of talk. The problem is that the assumptions were wrong, and consequently much of what followed were arrows in the air.

Someone mentioned that Guallam Solide was done the same way as IO’s Sinensis (that both are CO2, and presumably using the same grade raw materials), with the caveat that Guallam Solide is thus ridiculously overpriced. To set the record straight: We have never ever employed CO2 distillation or sold a CO2 extraction. In fact, we’ve written publicly about what we think of CO2 extraction and why we don’t use it. There’s nothing comparable in style, method, or raw materials between the two oils at all. For anyone who has smelled both, it’s like ginger beer vs orange juice; two entirely different smells.

The other point that stirred up several pages worth of discussion is that you cannot get resin out using distillation. I believe this is the position of everyone, except Taha and Ensar, and it’s been one of the cornerstones of the MOCA philosophy: distilling high-grade wood doesn’t give you much better oud compared with regular oil-grade distillations, because you never actually get the good stuff out from the incense-grade chips… i.e. we’re overcharging based on a false premise, and we’re simply adding the latest chapter to Harry’s escapades.

Even Taha once held this view, that distilling high-grade wood doesn’t result in proportionally better oud oil. Of course, this was before he knew how it’s done. Ever since he found out, he’s been actively trying to educate people about it. And he’s created a new genre of uniquely-his oils to reflect – and prove – this fact.

The guys who insist you can’t extract resin other than with solvents and the like are talking within a field they haven’t stepped out of yet, and when you then make mocking, discriminating claims about our ouds (or Taha’s, for that matter), you get a 2 + 2 = 5 scenario.

____

Oud Sultani 1990 is a breed of oil that doesn’t exist today. I haven’t smelled a single modern distiller who has produced the likes of it. And I don’t mean taste-wise.

Fast forward a few years, and we had the Royal Kinams and Kyara LTDs that gave birth to an era of oud that too no longer exists. (If cheaper and comparable alternatives are supposed to be so widely available I’m still waiting to smell just one of them…)

Moving on to today and we’re witnessing another renaissance of sorts, with low-temp Gen3 distillations, all kinds of condensers that didn’t exist 5 years ago, etc. Indian distillers, for example, never had access to these methods – they had (still have) unpredictable temperature curves (using uncontrolled firewood as fuel) and used (still use) their bare hands to collect the oil. To fall back on ancestral tradition in a craft doesn’t mean much. I know ‘traditional’ distillers who have been persisting in wrong practice for generations. Old-school often means unschooled.

Below is a concrete example.

You could call these setups ‘traditional’. They also happen to be the source of many of the ‘cheap-but-just-as-good’ ouds on the market.



With the these ones you get dust and rust directly infused into the oil, along with layers of non-agarwood coatings inside the pot. This is the default sight you run into in India and Cambodia.



This one below is more… artisanal.



The pictures of the MOCA distilleries were taken this year. The last one, responsible for Oud Ishaq & Co. a few years ago already. Gingerbeer and orange juice anyone?

 

[kesiro]

@Kruger This is very valuable and informative post. If anything, it illustrates loud and clear how much misinformation is out there, how false claims get propagated, and simply by repetition become assumed to be truths.

 

[kooolaid79]

Thank you for the wonderful post @Kruger! A lot of information and knowledge has been produced in this one post you answered. I hope we can all learn something from this starting with myself first.

 

[Ensar Oud]

The kind of oils that are currently being "re-packaged" as "old school" are in fact the classic, everywhere-you-turn smells of the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. I thought I was done with Murshid Bazaar type smells in 2004. I left them behind for good to seek something more profound and provocative; something more PURE. Little did I know the likes of Murshid Bazaar would re-emerge in our midst and call my oils "perfumes" when compared to their "old school" offerings. Rather than "old school" oud, the oils they're pitching against the Western artisan houses are generic "Arabian" type smells. Oils that smell "like oud" but not necessarily pure agarwood oils.

How do I know? I was sent a sackful of them from fellow forum members for a second opinion, and my reaction was so allergic I couldn't even bring myself to swipe them on my skin. Ask around the forums, and they will give you my candid reviews.

Out of sheer professionalism, I have abstained from making such a statement in public about the wares of my competition. Given the smear campaign they have initiated against everything I stand for, I am left with little choice but to speak up and make my voice heard on the matter.

If Tigerwood 1995, Tigerwood Royale and Oud Ahmad are not "old school" enough so far as Malaysian oud goes; if Oud Zachariyya, Shuayb, Hud, Assam Organic not "old school" enough when it comes to Hindis; if Oud Sultani 1990, Borneo 50K, Xiang Liao Ling are not proper "old school" Indonesians……… I am very curious to smell a proper "old school" concoction by one of these reincarnated masters from antiquity.

For some reason, I expect to be thrown right back to Dubai in 2005, when I left Murshid Bazaar for good and never looked back.

 

[kooolaid79]

The kind of oils that are currently being "re-packaged" as "old school" are in fact the classic, everywhere-you-turn smells of the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. I thought I was done with Murshid Bazaar type smells in 2004. I left them behind for good to seek something more profound and provocative; something more PURE. Little did I know the likes of Murshid Bazaar would re-emerge in our midst and call my oils "perfumes" when compared to their "old school" offerings. Rather than "old school" oud, the oils they're pitching against the Western artisan houses are generic "Arabian" type smells. Oils that smell "like oud" but not necessarily pure agarwood oils.

How do I know? I was sent a sackful of them from fellow forum members for a second opinion, and my reaction was so allergic I couldn't even bring myself to swipe them on my skin. Ask around the forums, and they will give you my candid reviews.

Out of sheer professionalism, I have abstained from making such a statement in public about the wares of my competition. Given the smear campaign they have initiated against everything I stand for, I am left with little choice but to speak up and make my voice heard on the matter.

If Tigerwood 1995, Tigerwood Royale and Oud Ahmad are not "old school" enough so far as Malaysian oud goes; if Oud Zachariyya, Shuayb, Hud, Assam Organic not "old school" enough when it comes to Hindis; if Oud Sultani 1990, Borneo 50K, Xiang Liao Ling are not proper "old school" Indonesians……… I am very curious to smell a proper "old school" concoction by one of these reincarnated masters from antiquity.

For some reason, I expect to be thrown right back to Dubai in 2005, when I left Murshid Bazaar for good and never looked back.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, lets not even touch the legends page because everything on that page 1/2 way down seems "old school" to me!!

 

[Nikhil S]

The kind of oils that are currently being "re-packaged" as "old school" are in fact the classic, everywhere-you-turn smells of the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. I thought I was done with Murshid Bazaar type smells in 2004. I left them behind for good to seek something more profound and provocative; something more PURE. Little did I know the likes of Murshid Bazaar would re-emerge in our midst and call my oils "perfumes" when compared to their "old school" offerings. Rather than "old school" oud, the oils they're pitching against the Western artisan houses are generic "Arabian" type smells. Oils that smell "like oud" but not necessarily pure agarwood oils.

How do I know? I was sent a sackful of them from fellow forum members for a second opinion, and my reaction was so allergic I couldn't even bring myself to swipe them on my skin. Ask around the forums, and they will give you my candid reviews.

Out of sheer professionalism, I have abstained from making such a statement in public about the wares of my competition. Given the smear campaign they have initiated against everything I stand for, I am left with little choice but to speak up and make my voice heard on the matter.

If Tigerwood 1995, Tigerwood Royale and Oud Ahmad are not "old school" enough so far as Malaysian oud goes; if Oud Zachariyya, Shuayb, Hud, Assam Organic not "old school" enough when it comes to Hindis; if Oud Sultani 1990, Borneo 50K, Xiang Liao Ling are not proper "old school" Indonesians……… I am very curious to smell a proper "old school" concoction by one of these reincarnated masters from antiquity.

For some reason, I expect to be thrown right back to Dubai in 2005, when I left Murshid Bazaar for good and never looked back.

Suppose one were to look for old school Ouds outside the Artisnanal Oud bracket where should one look ? Or Shouldn't look ? I want to sniff the old oils but I don't have a powerful budget. Is there no way one could sniff old oils.

 

[kesiro]

I bought some supposed old classic ouds from the Middle East several years ago. Actually were quite pricey. Every single one was completely DOP’ed and unwearable. All were advertised as 50 to 100 year old oud. They may have had a tiny bit of such oils but the bulk of the volume was definitely adulterant. I still keep them as a reference point.

So I do not know what makes an oil old school. Pure is concern no. 1, followed by the rest.

 

[Nikhil S]

I bought some supposed old classic ouds from the Middle East several years ago. Actually were quite pricey. Every single one was completely DOP’ed and unwearable. All were advertised as 50 to 100 year old oud. They may have had a tiny bit of such oils but the bulk of the volume was definitely adulterant. I still keep them as a reference point.

So I do not know what makes an oil old school. Pure is concern no. 1, followed by the rest.

Did u get gcms done on the oils brother ?

 

[kesiro]

Did u get gcms done on the oils brother ?

No. I did not feel the $ would be worthwhile. It was extremely obvious both in terms of smell and consistency/feel.

 

[Nikhil S]

No. I did not feel the $ would be worthwhile. It was extremely obvious both in terms of smell and consistency/feel.

Is it possible to smell DOP ? I read somewhere its odourless.

 

[Oudamberlove]

I purchased some DOP to be familiar with it's scent, so I can identify it in adulterated oils. The DOP I got was odorless.

I think that there are a variety of adulterants. The adulterated oils that I experienced, definitely used different adulterants, and on top of that, added aromatics.

As for the Murshid Bazaar types, it seems to be a widely used adulterant.

Aside from adulterants, there must be extenders. How else can I buy a Tola of Cambodi oil from Arabian Oud for $20. Probably a few drops of soaked-wood (grade D or less), then the rest,.......extenders.
Hey, if my budget was that low, that's all I can afford to use. ******as I am reminded of that, I am very thankful that I can afford to buy the pure-uncut-stuff*****

As for forced aging, I didn't used to mind it, but after AOMeg I cannot tolerate it anymore.

As for some old-time classic type oils. Can there be some excellent oils out there to discover? But of course, ............but good luck on that. They are few.... and far apart.

 

[Royal Bengal Oud]

Suppose one were to look for old school Ouds outside the Artisnanal Oud bracket where should one look ? Or Shouldn't look ? I want to sniff the old oils but I don't have a powerful budget. Is there no way one could sniff old oils.

http://iterji.com/en/

Iterji Family has some old oils , majority sold out , but incredible Cambodian from back in the days , if you email them , they should get in contact with you , and when they find out you are a perfume fanatic and reviewer they would probably open the vault for you InshaAllah Bhaia , Namaste Bhaia , Kudahafis ☕️☕️