The Wood/Oil Connection

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#5
The wood is all 100% Maluku, high incense grade. I'm keeping a nice portion of the same wood for offering as burning wood to customers who buy the oil if we end up releasing it. As of now, I'm incredibly attached to this particular batch as it's the first Maluku I've ever done! :cool:

Please note: this wood was harvested in 1999, courtesy of a private collector. There has been NO wood coming out of Maluku for many years (lest anyone use this as an argument that there's plenty of agarwood being harvested).
 
#6
That's awesome and excuse my ignorance. I didn't realize that Maluku is the actual origin. Totally understand if you don't release this. I have a full bottle of Oud Ahmad and Purple Kinam to look forward to in the meantime. That is, of course, so long as you don't release any other goodies that put a detour in front of that goal....Tigerwood Royale comes to mind! Lol.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#7
We discussed some very interesting yield boosting techniques with Taha in KL, and I'm entertaining the thought of trying a test batch with the methods he suggested, however I have little doubt the scent profile would turn out radically different from my test batch…
Stick to my guns and offer an oil that'll be minimum $3,500 – or try to boost yield, potentially cut the cost in half, or even a third, while compromising the original profile, or even risking ruining the batch (since the yield boosting stuff is not guaranteed and there's a high probability the batch could be lost)?
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#8
We discussed some very interesting yield boosting techniques with Taha in KL, and I'm entertaining the thought of trying a test batch with the methods he suggested, however I have little doubt the scent profile would turn out radically different from my test batch…
Stick to my guns and offer an oil that'll be minimum $3,500 – or try to boost yield, potentially cut the cost in half, or even a third, while compromising the original profile, or even risking ruining the batch (since the yield boosting stuff is not guaranteed and there's a high probability the batch could be lost)?
Interesting dilemma Ensar. My personal opinion is that you stick to what makes Ensar Oud..well..Ensar Oud. Taha has put his signature on oils and I love them for that. I suppose it could have been interesting had Monet had the opportunity to collaborate with Van Gogh and vice versa. Who knows, the outcome may have been epic. But then again, I love some Monet and Van Gogh just as they are.

That being said. Fully understand the difficulty selling a $3500 oil.
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
#9
A tough dilemma indeed!
Ensar, as you may recall its the 3 days after the soaking period is over that's the most turbulent and its what you do then that will shape the oil's character (being THE most sensitive at that point). I personally think that, if anything, it would amplify the 'Ensar touch'. Like handing Michelangelo an extra sharp chisel. ;)

Of course, there's still the dilemma of figuring out the exact species and the resin-to-oil ratio. One wrong decision and the entire batch is wasted. Were you able to get a small quantity of lower grade of this Maluku wood, to do a trial batch?

My own experience with Maluku (2 oils in the past) suggests its Cumingiana, and that's very close to Filaria. So I'd treat the wood the same as Filaria. And with Filaria, I've managed to increase the yield at least 5x more than normal. e.g. the test batch which you smelled and rather liked (remember? the one I had forgotten about, due to being preoccupied with the Philippines).
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#10
Were you able to get a small quantity of lower grade of this Maluku wood, to do a trial batch?
Nope. I'm still agonizing over what I spent on my last Borneo batch (the one you tried). I feel like someone knocked me over the head with a sledgehammer, and I'm still trying to figure out what happened. Hence the recent specials and discounts! :eek:

My own experience with Maluku (2 oils in the past) suggests its Cumingiana, and that's very close to Filaria. So I'd treat the wood the same as Filaria. And with Filaria, I've managed to increase the yield at least 5x more than normal. e.g. the test batch which you smelled and rather liked (remember? the one I had forgotten about, due to being preoccupied with the Philippines).
Hmmm… I vaguely recall you mentioning a meager 20% increase? Or was that for a different species? :confused:
If it's 400% then of course, let's make it cheap again! :p

For the test batch which I just completed the yield was just over 2 gr / kg. In my experience Filaria is always under 1 gr / kg. If you can boost it to 4 gr / kg, this is something I'm going to have to come over and see for myself! o_O
 
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bhanny

Well-Known Member
#11
A tough dilemma indeed!
Ensar, as you may recall its the 3 days after the soaking period is over that's the most turbulent and its what you do then that will shape the oil's character (being THE most sensitive at that point). I personally think that, if anything, it would amplify the 'Ensar touch'. Like handing Michelangelo an extra sharp chisel. ;)
Well, I figured it must be more complex then my simple oudmind could wrap itself around ;). If thats the case, then go for it. As long as Ensar stays Ensar and Taha stays Taha. Unless of course there is an intended collaboration.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#12
Nope. I'm still agonizing over what I spent on my last Borneo batch (the one you tried). I feel like someone knocked me over the head with a sledgehammer, and I'm still trying to figure out what happened. Hence the recent specials and discounts! :eek:
Yikes!
It makes sense though. I showed the oil to Adam as well, and he was super impressed by it. We were both trying to figure out how much it would have cost you, as the quality was practically bursting through the seams. I know a lot of oils can smell much 'better' than their actual grade, but some things you just can't pull off.

Hmmm… I vaguely recall you mentioning a meager 20% increase? Or was that for a different species? :confused:
If it's 400% then of course, let's make it cheap again! :p
Actually, it was a 10x increase in this particular case. ;)
Oud_Learner was over at my place when that distillation was running. It was the 'thaqeel' Filaria batch that you smelled on the last day of your visit.

For the test batch which I just completed the yield was just over 2 gr / kg. In my experience Filaria is always under 1 gr / kg. If you can boost it to 4 gr / kg, this is something I'm going to have to come over and see for myself! o_O
Here's the thing though....
I have NEVER managed to get over 0.1-0.5g per kg in the past (i.e. without yield boost). The fact that you managed to get 2g/kg is itself super impressive (and also indicative of the high quality of the wood of course). With my NG Filaria batch I got around that much oil after boosting yield.
I've deliberately done more yield boosting experimentation on Filaria more than any other species, precisely because of how nightmarish this specie is.

Considering the fact that you already got such a (relatively speaking) high yield, my guess is perhaps the g/kg may go up to 4 or 5.

As a side note, I was shy to release Sultan's Succor (Merauke Filaria) because you'd just released Xiang Liao Ling right around when I was planning to, and my oil is actually costlier (despite boosting yield!). As much as I love Filaria, this has to be the single most nightmarish specie.
Filaria oils are like diamonds. There's just no way diamonds can be cheap if they're genuine. Likewise Filaria (so long as we're not talking about swamp wood filaria). :(
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#13
Ensar, as you may recall its the 3 days after the soaking period is over that's the most turbulent and its what you do then that will shape the oil's character (being THE most sensitive at that point). I personally think that, if anything, it would amplify the 'Ensar touch'. Like handing Michelangelo an extra sharp chisel. ;)
The problem with Michelangelo is… he doesn't soak! :D

My own experience with Maluku (2 oils in the past) suggests its Cumingiana…
Cumingi-WHAT?!? Bro, you just killed all the appeal and mystery this wood had for me! :oops:

'Cumingiana'… LOL… I get reminded of Billy Crystal in "Analyze This" trying to pronounce 'consigliere' in front of a gang of mobsters. I normally wouldn't go into taxonomy when dealing with this wood because to me that strips it of its natural mystery and wonder. Have you ever heard of a chef who refers to his Roma tomatoes as Solanum lycopersicum? Let's face it, we're not scientists and we'll never be scientists, Taha! The minute we become scientists, we cease to be artists. That's just my take. Call me ignorant if you like! :rolleyes:

In the classic Chinese Oud tradition, agarwood is divided into two huge families – 'Hoi An' agarwood (惠安) which encompasses all of Indochina including India and Ceylon, and Sin Xo (星洲) comprising of Malaysia & Indonesia. Any further categorization was deemed unnecessary. I'm of course deeply influenced by this methodology as the Chinese school is the one I've embraced since the beginning.

If you go even further back to the classic Japanese Rikkoku categorizations, they might even substitute non-agarwood species for some of the scent profiles, so long as they display the same overall 'characteristics'. I was boggled to see a high end Shoyeido set where the 'Sumatora' chip wasn't even agarwood! :eek:

Actually, it was a 10x increase in this particular case. ;)
Oud_Learner was over at my place when that distillation was running. It was the 'thaqeel' Filaria batch that you smelled on the last day of your visit.
Lovely little 'Thaqeel' you had there! Smelled like the notes from a Caron perfume captured in wax. Let me know if you ever manage to get that stuff into a bottle! ;)
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
#14
The problem with Michelangelo is… he doesn't soak! :D
Ha! Fair point. Well, I'm practically the poster child for non-fermented oud, especially Indian oud (I haven't gotten more flack for anything like I have for that).
So I totally agree with you there... and by the way, maybe handing Michelangelo a laser cutter might have been a more apt analogy. Having said that, as you know I only use soaking as the preliminary step for what is to come next. So going along with the analogy, maybe the question should be: would Michelangelo be able to sculpt his David with a laser cutter? ;)

As for soaking in and of itself, I adamantly maintain my position. I have done too many side-by-side distillations myself using the very same wood to believe the opinion of anyone that suggests soaking help. Heck, if you ask me, if soaking helps a distiller get a higher yield then to me its actually a sign they're distilling wrong. Me personally, I'd pick non-soaked distillation over soaked distillation any day and simply play with the other variables to ensure a longer cooking period.
Case in point: Pencerahan which was cooked for 100 days straight, with a net yield of about 15g/kg. That's pretty decent considering there were no schmancy yield boosting techniques incorporated. Could I have soaked the wood prior to commencing with distillation, sure. Should I have? I say, WHY? Aside from the fact that it would warp the aroma, 100 days of cooking inside a pot encompasses practically all standard soak periods, so what's the point?

As a side, I asked Adam when he was visiting a couple days ago why he soaks the wood he's used for so many of his 'zero barn' oils (Malinau Extreme, Royal Vietnam etc). He admitted that he does the soaking simply because of the 'wow' factor ("3 months of soaking and not even a whiff of pickles, socks, cows, or excrement!").
I agree, it does have a certain wow factor. But at the end of the day, what is the point? Adam himself was disappointed by the yield of many of these super-long-soaked batches.

To me, the only benefit to soaking is when it opens up locked doors in the resulting oil. Like Oud Mostafa. That beastliness that gets you down on your knees, and takes over. That beast is a thing of beauty.
Then again.... is it the soaking? Is it the copper apparatus, glassware, or ceramic pots?
...Or was it the wood? ;)
I noticed that Kruger uploaded the "Ensar & Taha" video. Near the end you mention that in the end "the wood has the upper hand, every time". I couldn't have said it any better myself. At least that is the case with oils extracted from high grade wood. For lower grade wood, lots more acrobatics required to bedazzle i.e. DISTRACT the audience. I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about... after all, that's the case 99% of the time.

Bottom line: for me, soaking is just a means to an end (which is the step after the soak). Otherwise, I promise you I'm a foot soldier in the front line of the anti-soaking army. :D
Like I've told distillers repeatedly (even told them, sure, you can distill soaked and unsoaked side by side if you don't believe me), told Adam, and told countless other folks, soaking doesn't increase the yield in and of itself. I firmly believe folks are wasting their time. There's folks who soak till white wood turns black with mould, others who soak in alcohol (wasting precious oil into the solvent), and Adam even tried soaking in lactic acid despite my telling him I've tried it and that 'scientific report' backing it is plain wrong, so don't bother - which yielded a very weird vinegary smelling oil and there was no increase in yield. Having said that, I do like to wash the wood in lactic acid to kill microbes and fungi, if available.
There's other methods that can be used in this (losing) battle we're fighting against the rising cost of raw material. Sadly, each one comes with its own can of worms.

By the way, I understand you've done some unsoaked Indian ouds too? If so, how did you manage to convince the distiller?!
It was pretty tough for me. At first he was quite suspicious of my technique proposal. He threw the same old yield argument at me. However, after consistently getting between 74-83g per Gen3 batch from a 7kg pot, i.e. a very handsome yield (Chamkeila, Lalitya, and some future releases e.g. Meghalaya and Nagaland), he now listens to any and all suggestions and advice I share (ahem.. instruct). ;)

Cumingi-WHAT?!? Bro, you just killed all the appeal and mystery this wood had for me! :oops:

'Cumingiana'… LOL… I get reminded of Billy Crystal in "Analyze This" trying to pronounce 'consigliere' in front of a gang of mobsters. I normally wouldn't go into taxonomy when dealing with these oils because to me that strips them of their natural mystery and wonder. Have you ever heard of a chef who refers to his Roma tomatoes as Solanum lycopersicum? Let's face it, we're not scientists and we'll never be scientists. The minute we become scientists, we cease to be artists. That's just my take. Call me ignorant if you like! :rolleyes:
That cracked me up!
I must confess, it frustrates me that I do have to rely on some science even though oud is clearly an art to me. Left-brained folks must hang their coats at the door to appreciate oud to the fullest. Or when we're talking about distillers, for them to truly create art masterpieces. The 'problem' with science is that not everything that looks good on paper will smell good on the wrist. Or stir the soul.
For me, the only reason species matter is because their resin properties are different (e.g. Filaria thinnest, Crassna softest, Micro Becca and Malaccensis hardest). Since my yield boosting technique depends on the nature of the resin (how many a batch I've wasted in experimenting, to find the 'sweet spots' for each specie!), I am forced to wear my Left-Brain Coat for a few days. Simply because, unlike you, I wasn't fast enough to collect crazy good wood when it was relatively cheaper and therefore have to try my best to counter the effects of rising wood cost on oil price. Case in point: Xiang Liao Ling vs Sultan's Succor. And mine is still (slightly) more expensive.
...and I detest every minute I'm wearing that coat.

In the classic Chinese Oud tradition, agarwood is divided into two huge families – 'Hoi An' agarwood (惠安) which encompasses all of Indochina including India and Ceylon, and Sin Xo (星洲) comprising of Malaysia & Indonesia. Any further categorization was deemed unnecessary. I'm of course deeply influenced by this methodology as the Chinese school is the one I've embraced since the beginning.

If you go even further back to the classic Japanese Rikkoku categorizations, they might even substitute non-agarwood species for some of the scent profiles, so long as they display the same overall 'characteristics'. I was boggled to see a high end Shoyeido set where the 'Sumatora' chip wasn't even agarwood! :eek:
Double :eek:

Lovely little 'Thaqeel' you had there! Smelled like the notes from a Caron perfume captured in wax. Let me know if you ever manage to get that stuff into a bottle! ;)
Don't count on it! I may just have to dilute it in alcohol. Its practically raw resin. I know that's a distillation permutation I'll never try with Filaria again.
 
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#15
@Ensar and @Taha I love it when you two get going on distillation talk! Keeps me glued to my screen with extreme fascination! Although I'm slightly jealous of all the talk on these Filaria oils I've never tried lol!....Only kidding of course. Keep up the conversation, I'm loving it!
 
#16
Hi guys,
Total novice on the subject but here's my 2 cents. I speak as a consumer and having tried several different including online and gc based.

My two biggest observations are that organic or less resonated wild trees tend to produce oils that lack complexity, longevity and projection. I found such qualities in older oils that may have been considered bargain oils yet is lacking from most newer distilled oils.

This might sound like brash promotion but I speak as a consumer when I say that most of ensars oils do really well in this regard. My intuition was that it may have to do with the fact that most of his oils are darker, thicker with an oily consistency (olive, cooking oil is my childhood reference if you dipped an applicator stick in that stuff a lot more would stick if you know what I'm saying).

So my concern here would be that a yield increase won't produce off notes and dilution. I desperately would like fantastic Oud like was available 10-15 years ago to be cheaper and do and will actively try new vendors.

My observations thus far have been that oils made from supreme (aromatically speaking) wood with a view to accentuate the olfactory nuances (I guess longevity and projection are an element of this and generally mutually inclusive), produce the best results.
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#18
@Ensar and @Taha I love it when you two get going on distillation talk! Keeps me glued to my screen with extreme fascination! Although I'm slightly jealous of all the talk on these Filaria oils I've never tried lol!....Only kidding of course. Keep up the conversation, I'm loving it!
Yeah. Totally Gaianmind. I'm definitely an oud dork.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#19
Hi guys,
Total novice on the subject but here's my 2 cents. I speak as a consumer and having tried several different including online and gc based.

My two biggest observations are that organic or less resonated wild trees tend to produce oils that lack complexity, longevity and projection. I found such qualities in older oils that may have been considered bargain oils yet is lacking from most newer distilled oils.

This might sound like brash promotion but I speak as a consumer when I say that most of ensars oils do really well in this regard. My intuition was that it may have to do with the fact that most of his oils are darker, thicker with an oily consistency (olive, cooking oil is my childhood reference if you dipped an applicator stick in that stuff a lot more would stick if you know what I'm saying).

So my concern here would be that a yield increase won't produce off notes and dilution. I desperately would like fantastic Oud like was available 10-15 years ago to be cheaper and do and will actively try new vendors.

My observations thus far have been that oils made from supreme (aromatically speaking) wood with a view to accentuate the olfactory nuances (I guess longevity and projection are an element of this and generally mutually inclusive), produce the best results.
Oh my God, look at this guy! How are you doing akhi, nice to see you here! Welcome, welcome! :)

About the yield boost… I've hypothesized and philosophized in the past that if you're converting resin to oil and boosting yield by, say 50%, you're basically cutting the oil by just that much by introducing non-volatile molecules (most resins are dead scentless unless heated). Having seen firsthand what Shaykh Taha does with argon and a few other agents in his Top Note Laboratory, I'd have to give him a lot of credit for cleverly compressing the oil in a way that makes it quite dynamic in a most aromatic (albeit innovative and post-modernistic) fashion uniquely his.

You're right, if we do follow the same protocol for an EO release, it won't be an EO release. However after I officially receive ijazah from the Ustadh in this art of top note potentiation, I do intend to take the craft and make it work with my personal aesthetic, not only because I don't want to be stepping on the Shaykh's toes, but because my own taste is as you know for ultra deep, heart and basenote heavy resins, elixirs and such.

And if you try the Ceylon Series (No's 1 and 2), you'll have to admit that the oils are perfectly balanced between top and heart and base notes, perhaps moreso than any other AA oils I've smelled to date. So progress can happen both ways. Artists evolve and reinvent themselves constantly and it is this process of perpetual self discovery that gives meaning to what they do. (I.e. so if Ensar becomes Taha or Taha becomes Ensar, or they meet somewhere in the middle, don't panic guys! We'll just call it some new series!) :eek:

If you have not tried any of the Ceylons, I'd strongly urge you to give Ceylon 1 a go. You won't be disappointed. :cool:
 
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bhanny

Well-Known Member
#20
Oh my God, look at this guy! How are you doing akhi, nice to see you here! Welcome, welcome! :)

About the yield boost… I've hypothesized and philosophized in the past that if you're converting resin to oil and boosting yield by, say 50%, you're basically cutting the oil by just that much by introducing non-volatile molecules (most resins are dead scentless unless heated). Having seen firsthand what Shaykh Taha does with argon and a few other agents in his Top Note Laboratory, I'd have to give him a lot of credit for cleverly compressing the oil in a way that makes it quite dynamic in a most aromatic (albeit innovative and post-modernistic) fashion uniquely his.

You're right, if we do follow the same protocol for an EO release, it won't be an EO release. However after I officially receive ijazah from the Ustadh in this art of top note potentiation, I do intend to take the craft and make it work with my personal aesthetic, not only because I don't want to be stepping on the Shaykh's toes, but because my own taste is as you know for ultra deep, heart and basenote heavy resins, elixirs and such.

And if you try the Ceylon Series (No's 1 and 2), you'll have to admit that the oils are perfectly balanced between top and heart and base notes, perhaps moreso than any other AA oils I've smelled to date. So progress can happen both ways. Artists evolve and reinvent themselves constantly and it is this process of perpetual self discovery that gives meaning to what they do. (I.e. so if Ensar becomes Taha or Taha becomes Ensar, or they meet somewhere in the middle, don't panic guys! We'll just call it some new series!) :eek:

If you have not tried any of the Ceylons, I'd strongly urge you to give Ceylon 1 a go. You won't be disappointed. :cool:
Ahh, but wouldn't it still be an EO release my friend? Taking a technology, or skill, or whatever, and making it work with YOUR personal aesthetic? Isn't that exactly what has made EO what it is to date?