What is your opinion on this? Ensar, Taha, Adam?

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#1
Ran across this on ouddict. Especially the comments about no artistry being involved.

Alexander Oudh
My friend there is no artistry that is involved in distilling oils. Same basic principals are applied to every distillation. (Ground up agarwood, water and heat). lets not overthink this too much. For one its not his to name. Agarwood Oil has had a name since before the time of Buddha. (is it ok for someone to take the Quran, Bible or Torah and write it in their own script and rename it?)

Look why am I wasting my time to write about this guy? I'm done, and I'm afraid so are Gaharu's bloggers.

By the way my oils are representative of Arab House oudhs and I will stand by that as the Arabs make up 100% of my current customer base. If you do not know the inner workings of what it takes to run a business like this then you really have no skin in the game and I will label your opinions as consumer based. I speak as a vendor, you speak as a consumer. Do you not see where this is going?
 

PEARL

Well-Known Member
#2
@kesiro I'm not those guys, but it's really simple...

To definitively say there's no art in distillation is the equivalent of saying there's no difference between a child picking up a pen, pencil or goose feather quill to scribble and Leo Tolstoy picking up one to write War and Peace...
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
#4
Not one of them, but there seems to be a division between those that have pushed and innovated and those that have done things the same as many generations before. To each their own. But to insult those that have revolutionized the world, while remaining stagnant oneself, is rather egocentric and problematic, IMO. That overall type of thinking would have led to the world remaining flat, the only options I could offer patients would be crude potions, tonics and blood-letting, and I would be about at the end of my expectancy (43).

The truth is that there is place for both. And it is not that Ensar deviates far from tradition, in fact he embraces it, to the best of my knowledge. But why not push the boundaries? What is wrong with critically looking at each element of the process and seeing if it can be done better? Why not try to cook wood nobody else would dare?

If vendor X wants to distill $200/kg Indian wood the traditional way with all the traditional methods, no deviations, and sell it for $400/3g, then so be it. If he has the market for it, even better, good for him.

If Ensar wants to distill crazy $50000/kg or whatever Sinensis, with whatever unique parameters and apparatus he chooses, still using "same basic principals are applied to every distillation, (Ground up agarwood, water and heat)" as quoted above, and chooses to sell it for $2500/3g or whatever, then so be it. If he wants to hold it and offer it only to friends and certain clients, so be it.

Now I haven't experienced all of vendor X's (or Y or Z), nor all of Ensar's oils. But I have experienced enough to know that there is nothing wrong with most of X's oils. But I also know that those Ensar offerings are beyond compare, IMO. If they aren't art, then I don't know what is.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#5
Thank you my friend! You are 100% spot on. I was too lazy to write that up so I asked the question rhetorically. No doubt that both schools have a place and produce great results, but the wording in the quote really really comes off to me as naive at best, arrogant and snide at worst.
Having said that, I think it all comes down to the wood. Use the better wood with identical distilling techniques, and you will have better oil. Which takes me back to your comments about what level of wood people use. The results speak for themselves my friend.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
#6
Ran across this on ouddict. Especially the comments about no artistry being involved.

Alexander Oudh
My friend there is no artistry that is involved in distilling oils. Same basic principals are applied to every distillation. (Ground up agarwood, water and heat). lets not overthink this too much. For one its not his to name. Agarwood Oil has had a name since before the time of Buddha. (is it ok for someone to take the Quran, Bible or Torah and write it in their own script and rename it?)

Look why am I wasting my time to write about this guy? I'm done, and I'm afraid so are Gaharu's bloggers.

By the way my oils are representative of Arab House oudhs and I will stand by that as the Arabs make up 100% of my current customer base. If you do not know the inner workings of what it takes to run a business like this then you really have no skin in the game and I will label your opinions as consumer based. I speak as a vendor, you speak as a consumer. Do you not see where this is going?

Watching Roger Federer on court, you’d think that anybody can play tennis. He just makes it look so easy. But anybody who has ever stepped onto a court, and especially if they’ve watched professional tennis LIVE, and especially if they’ve actually had the chance to (try and) hit a few balls with a pro, knows that those guys are on a different planet. They move across the court at superhuman speed and hit the ball with such force and precision it makes you shiver. They have become immersed in their craft to such a degree of perfection it looks… ordinary, so much so that anybody watching them play on TV assumes their game to be the standard any regular high school player is/could be at.

When we talk about wood used for ‘incense-grade’ or ‘high-quality’ ouds, or oud oils that are not your everyday fare, automatically a certain image comes to mind (nice and dark looking chips). But that perception is FAR from reality.

Many people still seem unaware of the degrees of difference when it comes to the type of wood used in distillation. Like a good sportsman or musician who makes things look effortless, I think many in this niche market of ours have become so used to a certain standard that they have forgotten just how unique that standard is and how privileged we are to even be aware of it. Look at Adam (Feel Oud) and the videos he has posted. He uses a certain caliber of wood that has become the default image conjured up when we think about oud wood. We’ve done so many incense-grade distillation that many, especially newcomers, think it’s an easily replicable norm. Well, it just isn’t.

Some folks believe that there is no artistry involved in distilling oud. All you have to do is grind up wood, add water and heat it up. You know, like there’s also no such thing as a good chef – all he/she has to do is cut up some veggies, add water and heat up. A bookbinder just takes leather, cuts it up and stitches it together. A watchmaker just puts together a bunch of metal dials.

About proof, we’ve shown a great deal of what goes on behind the scenes with what we do. More than most, I believe. Our blog and Oud Info pages are filled with articles, videos and pictures of what goes and what does not go into our pots…



This is the kind of wood that makes up most distillations.
 

m.arif

Active Member
#7
Just to share some things Taha mentioned to me, and some things I've experienced when visiting him :

1. Taha loves coffee, maybe as much as he loves oud. Coffee bean origin, temp of roasting the beans, how coarse/fine is the grind, how much force to compress the ground coffee , temp on the coffee maker, temp of steamed milk, etc. , all these factors affect the overall taste and profile of the coffee.

2. His wife would say it's just coffee, and would happily go grab a drink at starbucks while they have a private barista at home.

3. They learn to live together as a family.

Point being, to some , some things are art, while to others, they are just unable to grasp the idea, then comes the choice to be salty about it or move on and coexist

Of course, this is coffee, which is not as scarce as oud. but the idea is similar in many ways.
 

m.arif

Active Member
#8


This is the kind of wood that makes up most distillations.
If that's the kind of wood used most nowadays then I can agree that the end of this type of oud is far away still. :rolleyes:

First time posting today after a long while. loving the new look and interface. Thanks @Luigi
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
#9
Ensar, I think your analogies are dead on and worth repeating. Anybody that is at the top of their game make whatever the do look easy and ofter effortless. When I am teaching a particular procedure to other surgeons, it is funny how they
Just to share some things Taha mentioned to me, and some things I've experienced when visiting him :

1. Taha loves coffee, maybe as much as he loves oud. Coffee bean origin, temp of roasting the beans, how coarse/fine is the grind, how much force to compress the ground coffee , temp on the coffee maker, temp of steamed milk, etc. , all these factors affect the overall taste and profile of the coffee.

2. His wife would say it's just coffee, and would happily go grab a drink at starbucks while they have a private barista at home.

3. They learn to live together as a family.

Point being, to some , some things are art, while to others, they are just unable to grasp the idea, then comes the choice to be salty about it or move on and coexist

Of course, this is coffee, which is not as scarce as oud. but the idea is similar in many ways.

Absolutely! From what I have seen, al lot of strife occurs when the person who is happy with the basic (coffee or oud) then mocks the person who can discern (or care to discern) the finer nuances of artisanal quality products. I am strongly in the 'to each his own' and 'live and let live' camp. I am often befuddled why so many are not. Just creates unnecessary conflict.
 

PEARL

Well-Known Member
#10
Just some thoughts and my opinion regarding oud political theory....

~Tradition, IMO there are not necessarily two schools but rather one school with differing types of artistic expression, methodology, etc. As bhanny eluded to, tradition without exploration and discovery leaves the world flat. In the field hey you...yeah you Sidi Ensar of medicine we have research, research based evidence, experiment, discovery, etc.; sometimes the pursuit of knowledge is at the expense of life itself. Similarly, I've seen more than one oud oil artisan mention that they've done distillations of higher grades of wood that didn't turn out they way they envisioned, resulting in oils that they couldn't and didn't attempt to release publicly. But when those experiments do work, oh boy, they often discover oils that were before unimaginable, oils that before were only dreamed about.

~Art of distillation, There is NO art in distillation, I've said it, believe what you will. The distillation of oud is reduced to distilling only oil grade wood using specific recipes. There's a traditional recipe for Indian, Camodian, Malaysian, send me the Nha Trang LTD etc., and the woods used fall within a narrow bandwidth with regard to grade. Using that particular mentality for the distillation of oil I wouldn't and couldn't say that the resultant oils would be necessarily bad, in fact they may be real good. However, I will say that they'd be generic; a generic Hindi, the same ole Borneo, etc.

Another aspect of the art of distillation is signature, I've experienced it and I've seen others write about it. As one begins to get more exposure to oils from the different artisans, they begin to be able to distinguish that artist's style, vision and signature from others. I will even go further and say that those artisans that are relatively new will begin to formalize their own signature as they become more experienced and further increase their ability to see through their personal visions in distillation; that is of course unless they want their signature to be the "signature of generic".

~Oud political theory and the democratization of oud, IMO a true democratization of oud is a system in which each producer/seller of oud runs his campaign on his own platform. Some of the producer/sellers not a sample either may run on change, some may want to make oud great again, some may want to make oils from the highest grade wood available, some may want to produce only oils which are "affordable", etc. In this system the populace of consumers cast their individual vote as to which candidate they want to appoint to whichever seat on "THEIR" cabinet they see most appropriate. The democratization a tola of oud already exist, it's just that some would rather mislead the populace by demonizing those who may run on a different platform than their own and disparaging those who have already cast "THEIR" vote.
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
#11
Given the sad current state of trials and tribulations, I had decided I will stay away until things settle down a bit. Which conveniently coincides with the fact that I'm currently swamped with other stuff like house showings, a sandalwood distillation, year-end tax stuff, and let's not forget the upcoming Borneo hunt with my brand spankin' new team of hunters. In fact, I'll be off the grid early next week it seems. Right now, I'm waiting for Adam to head over to my place, got a little time on my hands, so I thought I'd pitch in my two cents.

Here are my own thoughts on some of the issues discussed-

- yes, Ensar IS insane. Umm, that is precisely the point. I was actually searching up and down trying to find my Dec 2015 Agar Aura bank statement just so I could scan and post up the six-figure amount for the King Koh Kong project. Didn't find it, but maybe the company accountant has a copy, so if I do get a hold of it I'll post it up here.
If King Koh Kong can be that costly (despite the huge yield due to my yield-boosting techniques), then imagine the cost of Ensar's insane Taiwanese distillations, some of which utilized actual kinam. And let's not forget, I'm still a little fish compared to Ensar, so again triple the cost compared to my distillation projects wouldn't surprise me.
- I can imagine how hurt Ensar is. When he visited, it turned out I didn't even get to smell half of the stuff he wanted to show me (I had to rush to Borneo to deal with a mutiny, my wife was LITERALLY packing my suitcase for me while Ensar was here). I shamelessly straight up asked him how the HECK he copes with the zakat (crash course: Zakat is the 2.5% of total wealth including the market value of sellable goods, that al Muslims have to give in charity every year). You know what he said? For THIS reason, he's kept many of these oils for himself (just imagine how his personal expenses pile up). As if his current debts aren't large enough, the sheer zakat figure multiplied over years upon years of aging the oils (and the zakat has to be paid at the market value each year) would be enough to turn a child's head grey.
Does that make sense? What I'm getting at is that he's forced to keep these oils as personal possession (instead of business inventory), and that's why there are so many oils most of us have never heard of (and I had the privilege to smell some of them). I know I for one would be deeply hurt if I was stuck in this sort of situation, and then people turned it around and used it against me.
- Oud distillation is not an art. Artisanal oud distillation is an art.
- I have done 9 side-by-side distillation permutations and each one smelled different (Fleurs Et Bois and another oil @ TWIS, along with 7 others). This 9-batch project gave birth to the whole Gen3 and Gen4 stuff by the way.
- There's more to distillation art/science than just dumping some wood into a pot, boiling it, and collecting the biosteam. I keep trying to get people interested in espresso-making (succeeded with Taherg!), because the closer you get to making the 'god shot', the more you realize the existence of subtleties in oud distillation.
- Knowledge is power. The more you learn, the more you realize there's someone above you in terms of knowledge.
- I've said it before and I'll say it again: usually consumers focus on things like the condenser, water, pot material, soaking, and trivial (yes, trivial) stuff like that. As far as techniques are concerned, there's more to it. Ensar can, I'm sure, attest to the unusualness of my methodology for example, what say ye Ensar? Likewise, I'm sure Ensar has his own bag of proprietary secrets.
- More than shmancy or fancy techniques though, the wood itself matters THE most. Like a refined palette enjoying a cup of artisanal espresso (done right), a refined nose IS able to discern, identify, and appreciate oud quality. The majority of folks in the world are not coffee connoisseurs, so its silly (considering the prohibitive cost) to expect the number of true oud connoisseurs to be higher. Not clear what I'm saying? Coffee is cheaper and there are more coffee consumers in the world, yet very few coffee connoisseurs. Now apply that to oud, which is more expensive and more complex.
- (Sorry Ensar) I'm sure the techniques and apparatus for oils like Sultani and Royale No.1 sucked butts. I'm sure if you and I were there witnessing the oils being born, we would have been appalled. But years of aging (i.e. self-rectification) allowed the sheer quality of the raw materials to redeem the oils and that shines through, and that is what everyone who smells these oils is captivated by.
My point? Its all about the wood first and foremost. 99.9999999999% of distillers just go by grade/looks (actually, not even that - they go with the cheapest wood they can get their hands on).
- YES, a good nose CAN identify things like species, techniques, apparatus, the majority of adulteration techniques, nature and grade of raw material etc.. just by smelling. You, the reader, may not. But others can. Enough with the sour grapes already. I'm sure many of us have read Plato's Allegory of the Cave. If you haven't, please do. Its a short read.

And now, allow me to (literally) find a way to get a roof over my family's head. I have to move out of my dream home, my current home, because there isn't enough high grade agarwood left in the world to allow me to stay afloat. Those who are managing just fine, more power to you. I wish you all the success in your endeavours. But please don't jeer and taunt others who made the stupid mistake of focusing on a small niche within the market. The pinch is painful enough, so the taunts are extra hurtful.

Here's my new team.. I still have to go and interview them, and train them how to find and harvest Agar Aura grade trees. I'm sure you all will be understanding if I am absent for a little while. :)
team.jpeg
(PS: one of the guy's name is Fendi.. how cool is that?!)
 
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kesiro

Well-Known Member
#12
Taha! Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to write that up. Your answer, and the input from others is why this is the best Oud forum on the planet. All the best my friend and great luck with your new team!
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
#13
@ Taha… well said. Nothing to add really. Thank you.
May God Almighty makes it easy and put lots of blessings in to what you do!
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
#15
Oh, one important point I should clarify-
I refuse to take any part in the current tribulations in the online community. That's why (in case its not clear already) all of the stuff I posted above is relevant to EnsarOud, i.e. oud.. and not the folks behind EnsarOud or Ouddict. Even my own opinion about what I think should or should not have been posted publicly is something I keep to myself. I hope everyone else can do that as well, so we can all go back to focusing on oud.
My post was only to defend Ensar so far as his ouds are concerned. Even my touching on seemingly personal stuff had an oud implication (e.g. Zakat, and how that affects Ensar's public offerings). Those who think Ensar is crazy are quite right. Heck, I'll be the first to stick a feather in his hat and call it macaroni. And I'm sure Doodle would happily sing right along.