Kinam/kyara oils

[kesiro]

So the recent release of an oil proclaiming to be 22% kinam by ASO has got me thinking. There seems to be a plethora of 'kinam' oils coming out recently. This new oil, Taha's Khmer special K, Vietnam Special K, Ensar' Nha Trang and older oils like Brunei Kinam, Kynam No. 1, Kyara LTD, etc..
This wave has created quite a bit of confusion in my mind. Are some of these oils just crafted to comprise of a kinam scent (i believe Taha's oils are such) or are they named Kinam because they contain some?, how much?, what grade?, etc???? And what actually constitutes Kinam as included in these oils?

Disclosure: I do not have any first hand experience with Kinam wood at all. I have however been doing some research into its availability and costs. It appears that 1gm of kinam wood runs about $400 on the Chinese market these days. So if you wanted to make an oil with say 20% Kinam, and planned on making a couple of tolas, you would need roughly 2kg of wood, of which 400gm were Kinam. So, doing the math, that would take $160,000.00 of Kinam, not to mention the cost of the rest of the 80% of the wood. Throw in the amount lost doing the various trials during the production. So I guess I do not understand how that can be done for $3500 a bottle. I mean, just to break even, we are talking like $20,000 for 2.5gm!
I guess a possible explanation is to have procured the kinam several decades ago and stored it until now. Out of passion and benevolence, despite knowing the true value, use it to make oil and sell it based on wood values back then. I believe Brunei Kinam which is approaching a five figure price, is based on this explanation??

Anyway, just wanted to put this out here. If anybody has any info, please enlighten.

And for the record, the ASO Kinam oil sounds like an awesome oil!

 

[kooolaid79]

So the recent release of an oil proclaiming to be 22% kinam by ASO has got me thinking. There seems to be a plethora of 'kinam' oils coming out recently. This new oil, Taha's Khmer special K, Vietnam Special K, Ensar' Nha Trang and older oils like Brunei Kinam, Kynam No. 1, Kyara LTD, etc..
This wave has created quite a bit of confusion in my mind. Are some of these oils just crafted to comprise of a kinam scent (i believe Taha's oils are such) or are they named Kinam because they contain some?, how much?, what grade?, etc???? And what actually constitutes Kinam as included in these oils?

Disclosure: I do not have any first hand experience with Kinam wood at all. I have however been doing some research into its availability and costs. It appears that 1gm of kinam wood runs about $400 on the Chinese market these days. So if you wanted to make an oil with say 20% Kinam, and planned on making a couple of tolas, you would need roughly 2kg of wood, of which 400gm were Kinam. So, doing the math, that would take $160,000.00 of Kinam, not to mention the cost of the rest of the 80% of the wood. Throw in the amount lost doing the various trials during the production. So I guess I do not understand how that can be done for $3500 a bottle. I mean, just to break even, we are talking like $20,000 for 2.5gm!
I guess a possible explanation is to have procured the kinam several decades ago and stored it until now. Out of passion and benevolence, despite knowing the true value, use it to make oil and sell it based on wood values back then. I believe Brunei Kinam which is approaching a five figure price, is based on this explanation??

Anyway, just wanted to put this out here. If anybody has any info, please enlighten.

That truly is a very interesting question Doc!!

 

[Alkhadra]

So the recent release of an oil proclaiming to be 22% kinam by ASO has got me thinking. There seems to be a plethora of 'kinam' oils coming out recently. This new oil, Taha's Khmer special K, Vietnam Special K, Ensar' Nha Trang and older oils like Brunei Kinam, Kynam No. 1, Kyara LTD, etc..
This wave has created quite a bit of confusion in my mind. Are some of these oils just crafted to comprise of a kinam scent (i believe Taha's oils are such) or are they named Kinam because they contain some?, how much?, what grade?, etc???? And what actually constitutes Kinam as included in these oils?

Disclosure: I do not have any first hand experience with Kinam wood at all. I have however been doing some research into its availability and costs. It appears that 1gm of kinam wood runs about $400 on the Chinese market these days. So if you wanted to make an oil with say 20% Kinam, and planned on making a couple of tolas, you would need roughly 2kg of wood, of which 400gm were Kinam. So, doing the math, that would take $160,000.00 of Kinam, not to mention the cost of the rest of the 80% of the wood. Throw in the amount lost doing the various trials during the production. So I guess I do not understand how that can be done for $3500 a bottle. I mean, just to break even, we are talking like $20,000 for 2.5gm!
I guess a possible explanation is to have procured the kinam several decades ago and stored it until now. Out of passion and benevolence, despite knowing the true value, use it to make oil and sell it based on wood values back then. I believe Brunei Kinam which is approaching a five figure price, is based on this explanation??

Anyway, just wanted to put this out here. If anybody has any info, please enlighten.

And for the record, the ASO Kinam oil sounds like an awesome oil!

Hello dear @kesiro,

The Kinam wood used in ASO's Lam'ah was not distilled, it was extracted. The resulting oil was then mixed with a distillation of Vietnamese wood that best captures the Kinam aroma. Extraction can have a much higher yield than distillation. Kyarazen extracted 0.2gr of Kinam oil out of 0.5gr of Kinam (40% yield). To put that into perspective, at 22% of a 2.5ml bottle, only 0.55ml of it is Kinam. At a 40% yield, approximately 1.4gr of Kinam is needed (assuming 1gr = 1ml). At the price you've quoted for $400 per gram, that's $560 for 1.4grams. We can assume the price was slightly more or less. Add this base price to the cost of production, the cost of distilling the other %78 of high grade Vietnamese wood, the price of $3500 for a 2.5ml bottle becomes feasible.

I do have to mention, ASO used two types of extraction. Solvent extraction and pressure extraction. I don't know what the exact yield % was, so the pricing argument I made above was just a guesstimate.

For Brunei Kinam, I do recall @Ensar saying that it was distilled from sinking grade Brunei Kinam (please correct me if I'm wrong Ensar). I see the only way to justify his low cost of the oil was that the wood was harvested at a time when prices were still relatively affordable to make such an endeavor possible. I don't think doing the same thing today could be possible unless you yourself harvested the Kinam, and chose to distill it rather than cash in on the profit of selling it on the China market.

Oils like Nha Trang LTD, Kynam no. 1.. I recall it being mentioned to me by Thomas Kruger that these oils were distilled from woods that were from "Kinam trees". I think what that means is they distilled wood from a tree that might have had Kinam, or might have eventually produced Kinam. Keep in mind, if a tree has Kinam, even the bunk wood of that tree will be fragrant as the oil from the Kinam can seep through to the bunk wood. I have witnessed this on many occasions, where bunk wood of a Centennial tree will have a beautiful aroma as it contains oil that traveled to it from other parts of the tree, Oud parts.

As for Taha's oils... I don't know, but they're incredible oils nonetheless.

I hoped this helped!

 

[kesiro]

@Alkahdra Yes, of course that does help explain some things. Thank you for the explanations.
Regarding Taha’s oils, he states that he used wood that captures the Kinam aroma.

 

[Alkhadra]

@Alkahdra Yes, of course that does help explain some things. Thank you for the explanations.
Regarding Taha’s oils, he states that he used wood that captures the Kinam aroma.

I think that might be the case. Knowing Taha's skills, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[kesiro]

Hello dear @kesiro,

The Kinam wood used in ASO's Lam'ah was not distilled, it was extracted. The resulting oil was then mixed with a distillation of Vietnamese wood that best captures the Kinam aroma. Extraction can have a much higher yield than distillation. Kyarazen extracted 0.2gr of Kinam oil out of 0.5gr of Kinam (40% yield). To put that into perspective, at 22% of a 2.5ml bottle, only 0.55ml of it is Kinam. At a 40% yield, approximately 1.4gr of Kinam is needed (assuming 1gr = 1ml). At the price you've quoted for $400 per gram, that's $560 for 1.4grams. We can assume the price was slightly more or less. Add this base price to the cost of production, the cost of distilling the other %78 of high grade Vietnamese wood, the price of $3500 for a 2.5ml bottle becomes feasible.

I do have to mention, ASO used two types of extraction. Solvent extraction and pressure extraction. I don't know what the exact yield % was, so the pricing argument I made above was just a guesstimate.

For Brunei Kinam, I do recall @Ensar saying that it was distilled from sinking grade Brunei Kinam (please correct me if I'm wrong Ensar). I see the only way to justify his low cost of the oil was that the wood was harvested at a time when prices were still relatively affordable to make such an endeavor possible. I don't think doing the same thing today could be possible unless you yourself harvested the Kinam, and chose to distill it rather than cash in on the profit of selling it on the China market.

Oils like Nha Trang LTD, Kynam no. 1.. I recall it being mentioned to me by Thomas Kruger that these oils were distilled from woods that were from "Kinam trees". I think what that means is they distilled wood from a tree that might have had Kinam, or might have eventually produced Kinam. Keep in mind, if a tree has Kinam, even the bunk wood of that tree will be fragrant as the oil from the Kinam can seep through to the bunk wood. I have witnessed this on many occasions, where bunk wood of a Centennial tree will have a beautiful aroma as it contains oil that traveled to it from other parts of the tree, Oud parts.

As for Taha's oils... I don't know, but they're incredible oils nonetheless.

I hoped this helped!

One of the things I forgot to ask was about the yield. Keep in mind I have never distilled anything but water in some remote school science experiment, but 40% yield seems unbelievably high. Would that include some of the solvent that was used for the extraction process?

 

[Alkhadra]

One of the things I forgot to ask was about the yield. Keep in mind I have never distilled anything but water in some remote school science experiment, but 40% yield seems unbelievably high. Would that include some of the solvent that was used for the extraction process?

The resulting 40% yield is not including the solvent.

Extraction has a high yield. Kinam has high oil content. A Kinam extraction thus has a very high yield. Even a Kinam distillation should theoretically yield a lot more than a regular wood distillation.

But we must keep in mind, high yield doesn't mean extraction is better, the resulting scent is noticeably closer to the skin. This is because while a regular distillation only captures some of the volatile compounds, an extraction captures all the volatile compounds whether it be the oil/resin, or all other compounds that can be extracted out of the wood fiber itself.

 

[PEARL]

@Alkhadra I remember reading on KZ’s site about his kinam/kyara tinctures and I think I read about the extraction, is that info on his site? Trying to remember if I read it there or on the boards, thanks.

 

[kesiro]

The resulting 40% yield is not including the solvent.

Extraction has a high yield. Kinam has high oil content. A Kinam extraction thus has a very high yield. Even a Kinam distillation should theoretically yield a lot more than a regular wood distillation.

But we must keep in mind, high yield doesn't mean extraction is better, the resulting scent is noticeably closer to the skin. This is because while a regular distillation only captures some of the volatile compounds, an extraction captures all the volatile compounds whether it be the oil/resin, or all other compounds that can be extracted out of the wood fiber itself.

What I am not clear about is your comments about the scent staying close to the skin with extraction of kinam. I could see that being the case with lower quality wood as the waxes, lipids and other organic matter may weaken the projection. But with Kinam, wouldn't you expect the extraction to pull more oil and make the scent stronger?

 

[Alkhadra]

@PEARL I don't recall him speaking about the extraction on his website. The article that mentions the tinctures is this one: https://www.kyarazen.com/hon-kyara-versus-shin-kyara/

What I am not clear about is your comments about the scent staying close to the skin with extraction of kinam. I could see that being the case with lower quality wood as the waxes, lipids and other organic matter may weaken the projection. But with Kinam, wouldn't you expect the extraction to pull more oil and make the scent stronger?

It does not just stay closer to the skin specifically with Kinam. Rather, comparing an extracted Oud to it's distilled counterpart will show a richer profile, but lower projection. I have personally experienced these results. It is those very lipids and other organic matters that you've mentioned that give extractions their "richness" in profile, a long with the extracted oil and resin.

Have you tried IO's Sinensis? It's one of my favorites for it's gourmand-like scent profile. If you have tried it, notice that when wearing the oil, the top-notes, heart-notes, and base-notes are almost merged into one rich body that is difficult to dissect. On the other-hand, hydro/steam distilled oils show very noticeable progression, and then get weaker and closer to the skin as time passes (not all get weaker, I have noticed some oils got stronger, but this is just a general case I am making for the majority of oils).

I have also smelt some extractions that further separated the Oud oil from the extracted organic manner. The resulting oils were less rich, more heady, and had noticeable progression on the skin with good projection, while barely changing in terms of scent profile.

As for Kinam, I am no expert on Kinam to talk about how strong the oil within Kinam is in comparison to oil from other grades of Oud, so I won't get into that. What I can say is that even if there is more actual oil in the extraction, it is still a dilution in comparison to it's distilled counterpart. Imagine Kinam distilled using hydro distillation resulting in a 1% yield. Heck, lets say it resulted in a 10% yield. That does not compare to a 40% yield. Assume that out of this incredibly high 40% yield, half of it was actual extracted oil/resin. That still results in a 50% dilution.

 

[Rasoul S]

@Alkahdra Yes, of course that does help explain some things. Thank you for the explanations.
Regarding Taha’s oils, he states that he used wood that captures the Kinam aroma.

My understanding is with taha and more or less most examples there is no actual kinam but instead resembling the notes of gently heating kinam. full on examples of oils with tons of kinam notes in them are: EO sultan ahmet, purple kinam, AA kenmei and kiyosumi. those with some small resemblance of actual kinam: kinam rouge, ASO rubai'e.

I urge you to grab 0.1 gram of green oil Kyara from kyarazen. It is incredible. I don't find either kyarazen yellow oil or EO Brunei kinam pieces or tony Bolton red soil kinam to give you that AHA ,omens. The disbelief. The what the hell did I just smell? How the hell is it so beautiful. But pick up all others too if you can and as result Then you can see notes in oils that you never picked up on before or you picked up something but just didn't know what is it

 

[Rasoul S]

@PEARL I don't recall him speaking about the extraction on his website. The article that mentions the tinctures is this one: https://www.kyarazen.com/hon-kyara-versus-shin-kyara/


It does not just stay closer to the skin specifically with Kinam. Rather, comparing an extracted Oud to it's distilled counterpart will show a richer profile, but lower projection. I have personally experienced these results. It is those very lipids and other organic matters that you've mentioned that give extractions their "richness" in profile, a long with the extracted oil and resin.

Have you tried IO's Sinensis? It's one of my favorites for it's gourmand-like scent profile. If you have tried it, notice that when wearing the oil, the top-notes, heart-notes, and base-notes are almost merged into one rich body that is difficult to dissect. On the other-hand, hydro/steam distilled oils show very noticeable progression, and then get weaker and closer to the skin as time passes (not all get weaker, I have noticed some oils got stronger, but this is just a general case I am making for the majority of oils).

I have also smelt some extractions that further separated the Oud oil from the extracted organic manner. The resulting oils were less rich, more heady, and had noticeable progression on the skin with good projection, while barely changing in terms of scent profile.

As for Kinam, I am no expert on Kinam to talk about how strong the oil within Kinam is in comparison to oil from other grades of Oud, so I won't get into that. What I can say is that even if there is more actual oil in the extraction, it is still a dilution in comparison to it's distilled counterpart. Imagine Kinam distilled using hydro distillation resulting in a 1% yield. Heck, lets say it resulted in a 10% yield. That does not compare to a 40% yield. Assume that out of this incredibly high 40% yield, half of it was actual extracted oil/resin. That still results in a 50% dilution.

Bravo

 

[DanS]

I was looking at an older article on Kyarazen’s website and the picture on there describes there being very little oil in Kyara, mostly resin.

https://www.kyarazen.com/age-agarwood-tree/

 

[Rasoul S]

I was looking at an older article on Kyarazen’s website and the picture on there describes there being very little oil in Kyara, mostly resin.

https://www.kyarazen.com/age-agarwood-tree/

precisely. hence why it is NOT distilled but rather EXTRACTED via tincture. i am sure what brother @Alkhadra was referring to when said oil, is the oil trapped in the resin.

 

[Ensar Oud]

I was looking at an older article on Kyarazen’s website and the picture on there describes there being very little oil in Kyara, mostly resin.

https://www.kyarazen.com/age-agarwood-tree/

I would take this with a pinch of salt. Simply because it is a chart and it looks like "research" it doesn't necessarily entail the same sort of authoritative validity you'd associate with a well documented analysis pointing to thoroughly researched empirical data. Look at the second row, which indicates that there are copious amounts of oil produced within the trunk within "months" of infection. It is simply incorrect. It takes at least 3-5 years for any considerable amount of oil to form in the trunk of a wounded tree. And if you've seen agarwood trees firsthand and dealt with agarwood day in and day out, you'd take the rest of the columns with bags of Atlantic if not pink Himalayan salt.

As "decades" pass, sinking-grade wood will not necessarily progress to Kinam. There is NO causative relation between the length of time of infection, and its progression from sinking-grade wood to Kinam. Kinam is most often high-grade Kyen, and it looks more like super fragrant oil-grade wood than the ultra hard resin associated with "king super" and other sinking-grade woods. The chart makes the argument of "hydrolysation / reinfection" being the cause of Kinam's formation, but this is a theory at best. There is no proof that the tree undergoes new infections which convert existing sinking-grade, ultra hard resin into the soft, high oil-grade kind of wood that we associate with Vietnamese Kyara.

No doubt, some very high grade Kyaras contain copious amounts of resin. Yet they remain soft and you can cut through them like butter. I don't imagine sinking-grade wood can possibly undergo some sort of metamorphosis whereby it turns into the softer Kyaras. If you've seen cross-sections of sinking grade wood, you know it comes in striations that are uneven and ultra dense. Kyara is, by contrast, very easy to convert into beads because of the evenness of the granulation and uniformity of the cross-section. I maintain that Kyara formation is a unique process that occurs in very specific trees in limited geographic locales, resulting in semi-hard high oil-grade wood if the infection took decades (most kyaras), or soft resin that may sink in water if the infection took longer. It does not necessarily take centuries. Most Kinam does not sink in water.

What you have above is another theory, originating in unique empirical data as collected by me via firsthand experience handling kilos upon kilos of sinking-grade wood and Kyara. Does it refute what Kyarazen wrote? No. Does what Kyarazen wrote refute what I wrote? No. It all goes back to the never-ending hypotheses and conflicting theories about Kinam formation that we just have to learn to live with.

 

[Rasoul S]

I would take this with a pinch of salt. Simply because it is a chart and it looks like "research" it doesn't necessarily entail the same sort of authoritative validity you'd associate with a well documented analysis pointing to thoroughly researched empirical data. Look at the second row, which indicates that there are copious amounts of oil produced within the trunk within "months" of infection. It is simply incorrect. It takes at least 3-5 years for any considerable amount of oil to form in the trunk of a wounded tree. And if you've seen agarwood trees firsthand and dealt with agarwood day in and day out, you'd take the rest of the columns with bags of Atlantic if not pink Himalayan salt.

As "decades" pass, sinking-grade wood will not necessarily progress to Kinam. There is NO causative relation between the length of time of infection, and its progression from sinking-grade wood to Kinam. Kinam is most often high-grade Kyen, and it looks more like super fragrant oil-grade wood than the ultra hard resin associated with "king super" and other sinking-grade woods. The chart makes the argument of "hydrolysation / reinfection" being the cause of Kinam's formation, but this is a theory at best. There is no proof that the tree undergoes new infections which convert existing sinking-grade, ultra hard resin into the soft, high oil-grade kind of wood that we associate with Vietnamese Kyara.

No doubt, some very high grade Kyaras contain copious amounts of resin. Yet they remain soft and you can cut through them like butter. I don't imagine sinking-grade wood can possibly undergo some sort of metamorphosis whereby it turns into the softer Kyaras. If you've seen cross-sections of sinking grade wood, you know it comes in striations that are uneven and ultra dense. Kyara is, by contrast, very easy to convert into beads because of the evenness of the granulation and uniformity of the cross-section. I maintain that Kyara formation is a unique process that occurs in very specific trees in limited geographic locales, resulting in semi-hard high oil-grade wood if the infection took decades (most kyaras), or soft resin that may sink in water if the infection took longer. It does not necessarily take centuries. Most Kinam does not sink in water.

What you have above is another theory, originating in unique empirical data as collected by me via firsthand experience handling kilos upon kilos of sinking-grade wood and Kyara. Does it refute what Kyarazen wrote? No. Does what Kyarazen wrote refute what I wrote? No. It all goes back to the never-ending hypotheses and conflicting theories about Kinam formation that we just have to learn to live with.

excellent food for thought and bringing us back to reality. ty for taking the time

 

[DanS]

I would take this with a pinch of salt. Simply because it is a chart and it looks like "research" it doesn't necessarily entail the same sort of authoritative validity you'd associate with a well documented analysis pointing to thoroughly researched empirical data. Look at the second row, which indicates that there are copious amounts of oil produced within the trunk within "months" of infection. It is simply incorrect. It takes at least 3-5 years for any considerable amount of oil to form in the trunk of a wounded tree. And if you've seen agarwood trees firsthand and dealt with agarwood day in and day out, you'd take the rest of the columns with bags of Atlantic if not pink Himalayan salt.

As "decades" pass, sinking-grade wood will not necessarily progress to Kinam. There is NO causative relation between the length of time of infection, and its progression from sinking-grade wood to Kinam. Kinam is most often high-grade Kyen, and it looks more like super fragrant oil-grade wood than the ultra hard resin associated with "king super" and other sinking-grade woods. The chart makes the argument of "hydrolysation / reinfection" being the cause of Kinam's formation, but this is a theory at best. There is no proof that the tree undergoes new infections which convert existing sinking-grade, ultra hard resin into the soft, high oil-grade kind of wood that we associate with Vietnamese Kyara.

No doubt, some very high grade Kyaras contain copious amounts of resin. Yet they remain soft and you can cut through them like butter. I don't imagine sinking-grade wood can possibly undergo some sort of metamorphosis whereby it turns into the softer Kyaras. If you've seen cross-sections of sinking grade wood, you know it comes in striations that are uneven and ultra dense. Kyara is, by contrast, very easy to convert into beads because of the evenness of the granulation and uniformity of the cross-section. I maintain that Kyara formation is a unique process that occurs in very specific trees in limited geographic locales, resulting in semi-hard high oil-grade wood if the infection took decades (most kyaras), or soft resin that may sink in water if the infection took longer. It does not necessarily take centuries. Most Kinam does not sink in water.

What you have above is another theory, originating in unique empirical data as collected by me via firsthand experience handling kilos upon kilos of sinking-grade wood and Kyara. Does it refute what Kyarazen wrote? No. Does what Kyarazen wrote refute what I wrote? No. It all goes back to the never-ending hypotheses and conflicting theories about Kinam formation that we just have to learn to live with.

That was really informative, thank you Ensar.

I guess what I’m really curious about is if you did an ethanol extraction of Kyara, would you wind up with a solid chunk once the ethanol evaporated or would it be more of an oil? I’ve asked several knowledgeable people and gotten different answers.

By the way thank you everyone who is contributing to this thread this has very much sparked my interest.

 

[kesiro]

That was really informative, thank you Ensar.

I guess what I’m really curious about is if you did an ethanol extraction of Kyara, would you wind up with a solid chunk once the ethanol evaporated or would it be more of an oil? I’ve asked several knowledgeable people and gotten different answers.

By the way thank you everyone who is contributing to this thread this has very much sparked my interest.

I believe it does not turn into a solid chunk as all the other substances; lipids, waxes, pigments, cellulose matter are all extracted and keep it liquid.

 

[Ensar Oud]

That was really informative, thank you Ensar. I guess what I’m really curious about is if you did an ethanol extraction of Kyara, would you wind up with a solid chunk once the ethanol evaporated or would it be more of an oil? I’ve asked several knowledgeable people and gotten different answers.

I might just try this and let you know how it goes.... Ethanol and kinam though.... For some reason it just feels wrong.

 

[Alkhadra]

@Ensar

I might just try this and let you know how it goes.... Ethanol and kinam though.... For some reason it just feels wrong.

I feel you. One of them is so precious, the other one is...well, ethanol