In light of recent events, I want to take the opportunity to say a few things.
@JohnH has been asking me for a while to draft a company policy which the forum is run by, but it's been on the backburner given how civil and respectful everyone generally is. Seeing what happened last week, I want to point out a few things about why I founded this forum.
You haven't missed the fact that other forums have advertising. They also advertise things like "the most members", "the most active oud forum", etc. Here, the emphasis is on quality contribution vs. quantity. What we pride ourselves on here are the following things:
1) having a respectful and civil atmosphere where no one is attacked or ganged up on,
2) featuring some of the foremost artisanal distillers in the world's hands-on experience and findings, giving us a portal to communicate with them and ask them questions directly, and
3) maintaining a democratic community where freedom of expression is not censured unnecessarily, free of the click or gang mentality you may have witnessed on the other forums.
To give you a brief history:
I started Gaharu when things got really out of hand over at the old Basenotes forum, from a very similar scenario to what's unraveling before us now. The same two vendors who seem to be at odds now, were at odds then. And so were their "armies".
It all started when Ensar came back from one of his trips to the Far East and announced, to everyone's horror, the emergence of the Chinese market. Everyone cried foul. People were furious and accused him of fabricating the whole thing in order to drive sales. (Sound familiar?) We all know how that story turned out. The China market is now common knowledge to all and no longer under dispute. I know, some people still claim agarwood is not endangered, but then again I also know people who still claim the earth is flat.
Basically, one vendor's "troops" were in charge of moderating the Oud Lover's group. Trying to ease things with the mods, I was told the following: "Ensar put himself before the firing squad (i.e. with the China story). You just have to back off."
That rather ticked me off, as you can imagine, and so Gaharu was born.
The waters calmed and Taha, too, joined us on Gaharu. We have some very memorable exchanges between the two artisans from the early days of organic oud on EO. This is the place where many wonderful experiments were documented, and we have pictures, videos and some very informative exchanges here between some of the world's premier producers of artisanal oud.
After a year or two, we experienced another storm, this time about some picture that Taha posted. Ensar noticed what he thought was nail or drill holes, and called him out on it. The discussion died again.
Then the famous meeting between two giants of agarwood lore, which I am also very proud to have provided a platform for. You can read some of the most entertaining and informative posts about agarwood hunting, distillation, experiments and whatnot, right on the pages of this forum. I know from Kruger, when he visited Bangkok one time and ran into Russian Adam and his partner Ali (the Feel Oud boyz), they quickly pulled out their laptops and showed him screenshots of forum posts, asking what it was Ensar meant when talking about this and that, or how the condenser in this picture worked, etc. Can you imagine the joy I felt? My forum was like a surrogate academy of oud distillation. Budding artisans referred to it like a textbook.
I am very proud of my little oud community project here, and I'm especially proud that we host the brightest and most informed talents in the world here. Some are temperamental, others very friendly, others very shy, but all in all artists are nuts, I can tell you that much. They come in all sorts of weird cuts and hues, and frankly, I love them all.
These people are indispensable to making this community what it is. Without them, we'd be just another forum of people trying to guess things out for each other, instead of going straight to the source of the knowledge. To disrespect them is to disrespect the entire community, in my book. No one says that they need to agree on everything. As we have learned from the past, sometimes they disagree rather strongly about certain things. It is only natural and to be expected. To be honest, I almost get excited when they reveal part of their "crazy" side. I feel like it's going to disclose part of the secret behind what goes into their labor of love. In my book, that is part and parcel of the learning process this forum was designed to provide. The most appropriate thing for me, as I see it, is to not get involved.
Because I consider myself only an amateur (I can promise you, I do not plan on launching a product line, or posting annoying ads), I don't think it is appropriate for me to interfere when such people are having a dispute. To me, they make Gaharu what it is. Disrespecting them is like going back to the old Basenotes thread and letting Stuigi lord it over everyone with an iron fist. I think the correct thing to do whenever someone I hope to learn anything from is having a debate with someone else I hope to learn from, too, is be quiet and let them resolve it between themselves. Lacking the firsthand experience such people have, I'm simply not qualified to join their debate. The best thing I can do is listen, and hopefully learn something new. And this is exactly the reason I did not intervene and take hold of the reins. Phil and Koolaid felt the same way, and that is why they, too, stayed out of it. I must admit, I was strongly tempted to ban someone at one particular point, but I didn't. Naturally, something had to be done, and no one can blame @JohnH for stepping in and doing something. To prevent these kinds of things going forward, may I suggest, so that we all realize who it is we are talking to, that we approach our artisans with the utmost respect? They are the true landlords of Gaharu, folks; not me and you.
We created the Artisan's Talk section so as to give them some space to express themselves, where they could freely chat and rave about whatever aspect of their art they feel like to their hearts' content. Perhaps going forward, we should minimize interaction with the artisans, save to ask educational questions? Certainly, confrontation is unacceptable. Whether it's Ensar or Taha, or Adam, I don't see how we can stand up to the folks who've been teaching us all we know about oud. Not to speak of attacking them, resorting to vituperation and other nasty things. Or does everyone feel that the general discussion board should be limited to general oud lovers, and the vendors should make themselves at home in the Artisan's Talk and Marketplace? I am open to suggestions!
I clearly don't like to rule with an iron fist and the thing I hate the most is when I need to post something like this. I have handed over pretty much all "political" aspects of managing the forums to the moderators. When the discussion degenerates to open feud between our users and our artisans, I certainly feel compelled to step in and remind everyone what exactly it is that makes this place so special. I mean, these guys are not obliged to contribute here. They have blogs, Facebook, etc. It's a rare thing that they share so much with us in the first place. We should consider ourselves lucky we get first dibs on some of their most exclusive news and experiences.
If the artisans were to stop contributing, I would have very little interest in maintaining this website, to tell you the truth. Of course, I'd keep it as an archive of all the experiments and exchanges we've recorded so far, but it would ruin the experience for me and I wouldn't be as enthused about it as I am now.
So moving forward, anyone who declares war on one of our artisans has effectively banned themselves. I will not tolerate posts that are full of anger, venting, or letting everyone know how unhappy you are. If you're upset and don't like the discussion, you are not obliged to participate. Please, be my guest and join Ouddict instead.
To be clear though, I don't mean to say we cannot challenge the artists or try to point out when something seems out of place, but remember that they have faces, they are public figures. For users whose identities are entirely virtual to get upset for personal reasons and in the process jeopardize the contribution of distillers as a result makes me, and everyone else, upset because the community loses out in the end. All for the sake of personal qualms that could have been pursued privately, as @Dorje wisely pointed out.
Here, respect and politeness are the law of the land. Disagreements are fine, so long as you don't start posting just to get things off your chest. Let me put it this way, if a faculty member at your university gets into a debate with another, would you join the argument or stay out of it? What if you were enrolled in lectures with each of them? People don't generally appreciate the guy from the crowd who stands up shouting, making a scene. He might be right and he might have a point, but he's out of place and out of line. If things get uncivil, that's what the moderators are for. So may I suggest that if you are frustrated and feel like shouting out, please contact the moderators first. If you feel one of the artists needs a hug, inform them via PM.
It is in really bad taste to attack the people who have taught us most of what we know about oud, and abuse them just for the sake of putting yourself up or because you feel you have been wrongly addressed. If you don't like Steve Jobs, that's all right. We're here to talk about the MacBook, not the man.
A public forum is not about one person's feelings. There is a larger context here, of which I and hundreds of other members, and even more regular viewers, are part of. People whose experience and appreciation for oud oils are enriched by the contribution of yes, sometimes, eccentric behavior. Please bear this in mind for the future.
Peace and Love to All,
Luigi
@JohnH has been asking me for a while to draft a company policy which the forum is run by, but it's been on the backburner given how civil and respectful everyone generally is. Seeing what happened last week, I want to point out a few things about why I founded this forum.
You haven't missed the fact that other forums have advertising. They also advertise things like "the most members", "the most active oud forum", etc. Here, the emphasis is on quality contribution vs. quantity. What we pride ourselves on here are the following things:
1) having a respectful and civil atmosphere where no one is attacked or ganged up on,
2) featuring some of the foremost artisanal distillers in the world's hands-on experience and findings, giving us a portal to communicate with them and ask them questions directly, and
3) maintaining a democratic community where freedom of expression is not censured unnecessarily, free of the click or gang mentality you may have witnessed on the other forums.
To give you a brief history:
I started Gaharu when things got really out of hand over at the old Basenotes forum, from a very similar scenario to what's unraveling before us now. The same two vendors who seem to be at odds now, were at odds then. And so were their "armies".
It all started when Ensar came back from one of his trips to the Far East and announced, to everyone's horror, the emergence of the Chinese market. Everyone cried foul. People were furious and accused him of fabricating the whole thing in order to drive sales. (Sound familiar?) We all know how that story turned out. The China market is now common knowledge to all and no longer under dispute. I know, some people still claim agarwood is not endangered, but then again I also know people who still claim the earth is flat.
Basically, one vendor's "troops" were in charge of moderating the Oud Lover's group. Trying to ease things with the mods, I was told the following: "Ensar put himself before the firing squad (i.e. with the China story). You just have to back off."
That rather ticked me off, as you can imagine, and so Gaharu was born.
The waters calmed and Taha, too, joined us on Gaharu. We have some very memorable exchanges between the two artisans from the early days of organic oud on EO. This is the place where many wonderful experiments were documented, and we have pictures, videos and some very informative exchanges here between some of the world's premier producers of artisanal oud.
After a year or two, we experienced another storm, this time about some picture that Taha posted. Ensar noticed what he thought was nail or drill holes, and called him out on it. The discussion died again.
Then the famous meeting between two giants of agarwood lore, which I am also very proud to have provided a platform for. You can read some of the most entertaining and informative posts about agarwood hunting, distillation, experiments and whatnot, right on the pages of this forum. I know from Kruger, when he visited Bangkok one time and ran into Russian Adam and his partner Ali (the Feel Oud boyz), they quickly pulled out their laptops and showed him screenshots of forum posts, asking what it was Ensar meant when talking about this and that, or how the condenser in this picture worked, etc. Can you imagine the joy I felt? My forum was like a surrogate academy of oud distillation. Budding artisans referred to it like a textbook.
I am very proud of my little oud community project here, and I'm especially proud that we host the brightest and most informed talents in the world here. Some are temperamental, others very friendly, others very shy, but all in all artists are nuts, I can tell you that much. They come in all sorts of weird cuts and hues, and frankly, I love them all.
These people are indispensable to making this community what it is. Without them, we'd be just another forum of people trying to guess things out for each other, instead of going straight to the source of the knowledge. To disrespect them is to disrespect the entire community, in my book. No one says that they need to agree on everything. As we have learned from the past, sometimes they disagree rather strongly about certain things. It is only natural and to be expected. To be honest, I almost get excited when they reveal part of their "crazy" side. I feel like it's going to disclose part of the secret behind what goes into their labor of love. In my book, that is part and parcel of the learning process this forum was designed to provide. The most appropriate thing for me, as I see it, is to not get involved.
Because I consider myself only an amateur (I can promise you, I do not plan on launching a product line, or posting annoying ads), I don't think it is appropriate for me to interfere when such people are having a dispute. To me, they make Gaharu what it is. Disrespecting them is like going back to the old Basenotes thread and letting Stuigi lord it over everyone with an iron fist. I think the correct thing to do whenever someone I hope to learn anything from is having a debate with someone else I hope to learn from, too, is be quiet and let them resolve it between themselves. Lacking the firsthand experience such people have, I'm simply not qualified to join their debate. The best thing I can do is listen, and hopefully learn something new. And this is exactly the reason I did not intervene and take hold of the reins. Phil and Koolaid felt the same way, and that is why they, too, stayed out of it. I must admit, I was strongly tempted to ban someone at one particular point, but I didn't. Naturally, something had to be done, and no one can blame @JohnH for stepping in and doing something. To prevent these kinds of things going forward, may I suggest, so that we all realize who it is we are talking to, that we approach our artisans with the utmost respect? They are the true landlords of Gaharu, folks; not me and you.
We created the Artisan's Talk section so as to give them some space to express themselves, where they could freely chat and rave about whatever aspect of their art they feel like to their hearts' content. Perhaps going forward, we should minimize interaction with the artisans, save to ask educational questions? Certainly, confrontation is unacceptable. Whether it's Ensar or Taha, or Adam, I don't see how we can stand up to the folks who've been teaching us all we know about oud. Not to speak of attacking them, resorting to vituperation and other nasty things. Or does everyone feel that the general discussion board should be limited to general oud lovers, and the vendors should make themselves at home in the Artisan's Talk and Marketplace? I am open to suggestions!
I clearly don't like to rule with an iron fist and the thing I hate the most is when I need to post something like this. I have handed over pretty much all "political" aspects of managing the forums to the moderators. When the discussion degenerates to open feud between our users and our artisans, I certainly feel compelled to step in and remind everyone what exactly it is that makes this place so special. I mean, these guys are not obliged to contribute here. They have blogs, Facebook, etc. It's a rare thing that they share so much with us in the first place. We should consider ourselves lucky we get first dibs on some of their most exclusive news and experiences.
If the artisans were to stop contributing, I would have very little interest in maintaining this website, to tell you the truth. Of course, I'd keep it as an archive of all the experiments and exchanges we've recorded so far, but it would ruin the experience for me and I wouldn't be as enthused about it as I am now.
So moving forward, anyone who declares war on one of our artisans has effectively banned themselves. I will not tolerate posts that are full of anger, venting, or letting everyone know how unhappy you are. If you're upset and don't like the discussion, you are not obliged to participate. Please, be my guest and join Ouddict instead.
To be clear though, I don't mean to say we cannot challenge the artists or try to point out when something seems out of place, but remember that they have faces, they are public figures. For users whose identities are entirely virtual to get upset for personal reasons and in the process jeopardize the contribution of distillers as a result makes me, and everyone else, upset because the community loses out in the end. All for the sake of personal qualms that could have been pursued privately, as @Dorje wisely pointed out.
Here, respect and politeness are the law of the land. Disagreements are fine, so long as you don't start posting just to get things off your chest. Let me put it this way, if a faculty member at your university gets into a debate with another, would you join the argument or stay out of it? What if you were enrolled in lectures with each of them? People don't generally appreciate the guy from the crowd who stands up shouting, making a scene. He might be right and he might have a point, but he's out of place and out of line. If things get uncivil, that's what the moderators are for. So may I suggest that if you are frustrated and feel like shouting out, please contact the moderators first. If you feel one of the artists needs a hug, inform them via PM.
It is in really bad taste to attack the people who have taught us most of what we know about oud, and abuse them just for the sake of putting yourself up or because you feel you have been wrongly addressed. If you don't like Steve Jobs, that's all right. We're here to talk about the MacBook, not the man.
A public forum is not about one person's feelings. There is a larger context here, of which I and hundreds of other members, and even more regular viewers, are part of. People whose experience and appreciation for oud oils are enriched by the contribution of yes, sometimes, eccentric behavior. Please bear this in mind for the future.
Peace and Love to All,
Luigi
