Oil/air ratios for aging and samples oxidation

[Fra881]

I was going to post this in the Let's Talk Oud discussion but since it's been shut for ages by now here we go.

I'm mainly asking Ensar, Taha and Adam: do you keep a definite oil/air ratio when you age your oils before release? Or perhaps zero air at all? I guess the same applies to your personal collections for long term storage.

Secondly, in the inconvenient storage situation that is a sample, how high is actually the risk for the oil to oxidise and/or thicken toward a noticeable degradation of the quality? And how much time do we approximately have with 0.3g and with 0.15g samples in the classic 1ml vial?

 

[Ensar Oud]

Hello @Fra881, and welcome!

The 'Let's Talk Oud' thread has not been shut down. The admin have been trying to 'fix' whatever went wrong with it, and they can't figure out what the problem is. I'm not sure if the DOP identification talk that was started by Taherg and continued by myself led to some people to want to hack the thread and take it down.... Or if it made certain folks uncomfortable to see myself, Taha and Adam discussing oud on the same platform.... But we have reason to believe it was a hacker who didn't like that thread and wanted it down.

The admin are busy upgrading the software so as to prevent such things from happening again. I've also suggested having daily updates of the entire contents of the website on a separate server, so that if it does happen it would be easy to restore any lost content.

I am very upset about the loss of the Let's Talk Oud thread – more so than if I'd lost proper oud oil! I took many hours to write my Borneo story, the original introduction to the Kinam thread (which wasn't copied over to the new thread), as well as the DOP ID parameters that I started to put together. Let's hope and pray that someone with enough knowledge of programming will become available soon and be able to recover the thread.

As for whoever it was that wasn't happy about the thread, I guess they're going to have to live with the fact that we're going to continue posting here and do what it takes to protect what we write.

To answer your question, I try to store my oils with as little air as possible in high quality pyrex bottles, in a dark space away from light and extreme temperatures.

Regarding samples, a lot depends on the species of the wood. If you're storing a Borneo oil, it is a lot more prone to oxidation than, say, an Indochinese oil. I received a sample of Kalbar 1 from Taha recently, and unfortunately the oil had oxidized considerably, given the small volume relative to the capacity of the vial.... On the other hand, I've seen vintage batches of Chinese oud stored in large pyrex bottles for years, and you couldn't tell there had been any serious damage caused by the amount of air in the bottle relative to the amount of oil.

 

[m.arif]

@ensar Wow. I thought there was a normal glitch or bug . Never thought it was that serious. No wonder it's still not back up yet. Keep writing guys. From now I'll copy paste every valueble discussion into my hard drive. If there are specific threads that any of you guys deem valueble, and I might miss it, let me know. I'll copy all of it in shaa'Allaah.

 

[Fra881]

It's indecent somebody could be so ignoble to take down such an awesome and constructive thread.. lucky us who managed to read and learn from it, I really hope it'll be available again for everybody who didn't (and for me to revise). Should we start a "Let's Talk Oud 2" to continue the flow that will be later attached to the part 1 if they'll be able to recover it?

Back on topic: so, since you store the oils with as little air as possible (hence ideally zero), what is it that "ages" the oud? Not being slow steady oxidation as I thought, which needs air, is it a number of reaction that take place inside the oil between its molecules and that does not need any external contribution?

Regarding the samples, taking a Borneo as example, how long do we approximately have since it's been poured before the oxidation gets really noticeable with 0.3g and how long with 0.15g? I'm also asking to anybody who has had samples for long times, just to have an idea.. Are we talking 6 months, 2 years or 5?

 

[Taha]

Indonesian ouds are the most prone to bad aging, especially oils from Borneo, Sulawesi and Sumatra.
As a general rule, aging = deteriorating, when it comes to Far East species. The exception is proper aging, which has quite the opposite effect. But it has to be done right, in an oxygen-less or near oxygen-less environment, and away from sunlight/UV. Otherwise a whole lot of bad stuff happens, due to the naturally higher concentration of furan compounds in Far East species, and quite a few other reasons.
With Indian and Indo-Chinese ouds its very different. Even 'mehh' oils can smell pretty decent after a few years of aging. On the other hand, most Indonesian oils will smell worse after conventional aging.

It makes me shake my head, when I read comments like "aging will probably do wonders to this oil!" and folks are referring to Indonesian ouds.
NO.
In most cases, folks are knowingly or unknowingly referring to oxidation (some even explicitly refer to the effects of so-called 'aging' in vials or oil stuck to the neck threading).
Oxidation sucks, period.
I don't care if some distillers have been doing it for centuries or even millennia, anyone with even an inkling of knowledge about essential oils knows that oxidation = bad. Some people even leave their bottles open all the time, deliberately. That's practically murder, governments need to pass a law against folks who do this.
I do quite the opposite, I try to cure the oil the very same day (more typical is a week, sometimes 2), and then seal the oil under an argon blanket. Interestingly, it has the same effect as anoxic aging of agarwood oleoresin in trees (hint: kinam and other ambiently aromatic aloes). The aging pathway is entirely different, and even after the argon blanket is removed (i.e. conventional aging kicks in), the aroma takes a different route.

If anyone wants to know what a properly-aged Far East oud smells like, you need not look further than Ensar's OR85. My guess is the distiller had filled up the entire bottle to the point where there was no/hardly any air left in the bottle, and just stored it like that.
If the same oil had been aged typically (with more air), I bet the oil would have smelled like rancid fat.

So folks, please stop killing your ouds. If you like your ouds dull, flat and mellow, just apply them together with some carrier oil. Don't kill them.
If you have a ton of sample vials with a just a few drops of oil in them, I recommend looking into getting yourself a can of argon gas. I recommend WineSaver. A bottle costs hardly anything, and will last you a very long time. Oh, and it comes with a snake-tube attachment, so pouring the gas into your vials will be a breeze.
(pun intended)

 

[bhanny]

@Taha - Thanks. Very helpful and educational. Lots of bunk info out there. Do you refill the argon after each use? Hope your journey has been safe and fruitful so far.

 

[PEARL]

@Taha, As salaamu alaykum. The thing I wonder about using argon gas on sample vials is the assumption that the press fit caps are air tight anyway. I'd think the gas would just seep out anyway.

 

[Fra881]

interestingly I have a can of private preserve I use for wines and whiskies, I thought of using it but the pressure is very high and the speed of the gas jet would splash the oud all out of the vial. I need to think of a way to put the gas in that is not just squeezing the can with the nozzle directly in the vial.

@PEARL, I think the press fit caps are pretty air tight, and anyway argon is heavier than air so it stays down covering the oil with no intention of exiting the vial from the cap.

 

[Oud Learner]

Now say the oil has been properly aged for 10 years under perfect oxygen-less condition, would it still go bad once it comes into contact with oxygen? Or does it need to stay constantly in anaerobic condition to preserve its scent profile? Which comes back to the century old question, as a rule of thumb how long do you need for an oil to be properly aged? Surely there must be a point where the oil is optimally aged such that it will not undergo any more chemical changes.

Now this is sorely the reason why i use a v-vial instead of normal glass bottle as i want the oil to be stored in as perfect condition as possible.

@Fra881 and PEARL: No doubt the sample vial cap is not exactly air tight. But as mentioned by Fra881, as long as the vial is stored upright with no major disturbance or shaking, majority of the argon gas should stay in the vial. After all you just need a thin blanket of argon gas to prevent oxygen contact with the oil.

 

[Taha]

@Taha - Thanks. Very helpful and educational. Lots of bunk info out there. Do you refill the argon after each use? Hope your journey has been safe and fruitful so far.

If by safe you mean alive, then yes.
If by fruitful you mean I got to try new exotic fruits, then yes again.

There's no need to replenish argon after every use. So long as the vials are stored upright and you're careful when opening the vial, refilling just once or twice a year would be sufficient.

Having said that - sample vials are meant for..... sampling.
Dipstick sample vials aren't exactly the best for long-term storage —*they were never meant for that.

@Taha, As salaamu alaykum. The thing I wonder about using argon gas on sample vials is the assumption that the press fit caps are air tight anyway. I'd think the gas would just seep out anyway.

You don't need a lot, just a half-second pump is sufficient.
If you use too much, there can be problems. One guy I know burst his Pyrex container because he filled it up ALL the way with argon. He pumped for something like a minute straight and then sealed it shut. After a few days, there was a loud BOOM!
He lost the oil.
Soooo... yeah, you just need a thin blanket.

interestingly I have a can of private preserve I use for wines and whiskies, I thought of using it but the pressure is very high and the speed of the gas jet would splash the oud all out of the vial. I need to think of a way to put the gas in that is not just squeezing the can with the nozzle directly in the vial.

Hmm, the one I use (WineSaver, linked earlier) pours out the gas very, very slowly. There is no splashing whatsoever.

Now say the oil has been properly aged for 10 years under perfect oxygen-less condition, would it still go bad once it comes into contact with oxygen? Or does it need to stay constantly in anaerobic condition to preserve its scent profile? Which comes back to the century old question, as a rule of thumb how long do you need for an oil to be properly aged? Surely there must be a point where the oil is optimally aged such that it will not undergo any more chemical changes.

Now here my opinion may differ from others'.
I believe that a hydro-distilled oil reaches its prime in about 4-6 months (8-12 to be on the safe side), and a steam-distilled oil reaches its prime in about 9-12 months (1.5-2 years to be on the safe side).
Oud_Learner, you, m.arif, and others who have been to my home may recall I showed you my 250ml empty bottles of Royal Chen Xiang, Ketenangan, and maybe some other oils. They all had maybe 0.2-0.4ml left over. But if you recall, when I screwed the lid off, the top notes were as pristine as when the oils were young, the frosty notes would practically freeze your sinuses.
I also still have a vial of Borneo Jewel, a 5-year old oil, and it smells exactly the same today as it did when it was publicly released.
I like my ouds full of life. Let the Arabian Big Houses kill their oils if they want, and clearly there is a market for those dead oils. But for me, oud is top and heart and base. Typical/bad aging damages the top and heart. I use argon because I don't want a single compound lost. I don't know if Ensar uses argon, but he does top up his containers and that has the same end result, so using argon is pointless then.

Having said all that... when I smell my Laotian Gen3 oil, Lao Chen Xiang, I can't help but think about deliberately oxidizing it a bit. Not that I actually ever would do that, but I can picture frost-bitten noses and sinus tracts resembling glaciers when customers smell it.
I bet this oil will be so intense for most folks, that some will end up deliberately oxidizing it just to cope with its intensity.

 

[m.arif]

@Taha. You're right. Some of the larger storage bottles you showed with barely any oil in it still smelled very potent. Even stronger than some oils from other vendors.

 

[m.arif]

Anyone knows where to get the Argon gas like Taha mentioned around Malaysia/Singapore ? If none.. then I might be ordering some from the US at the end of this year. A family member will be coming back to Malaysia. If anyone nearby wants some we can chip in.