Oud Biz: Real Talk

Discussion in 'Artisan's Talk' started by Kruger, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. Ensar Oud

    Ensar Oud Well-Known Member

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    Is there such a thing as Saudi Lit, I wonder? Oddly, one never hears of any writers from the Mamlakah...
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  2. powdernose

    powdernose Member

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    Good evening,

    lol :D
    Yes, I've noticed.

    Apologies, I had not considered it may not have been a factual statement when I came across it.
    I don't think it could be considered an unflattering credential though.

    Btw, I'm glad you edited your post to soften the jabs you make at your detractors and competitors.
    However, these jabs are still very much there. I'm starting to lose count of how many there have been so far in your replies to me.
    Sometimes it feels like you're addressing questions I've never made and an audience other than me.

    I agree. Especially in the case of a perfume.
    When it comes to distilling an essential oil though, I believe much of the community has over-romanticised the craft.

    It's a shame you removed the link to the EO2 video. I quite liked it.
    I don't bother much with rumours myself, but if you care to accept direct and honest critique, it is about 2 mins too long.

    Interesting. Thank you for the information.

    No, actually you didn't.
    You offered a contradiction and you didn't address the technical aspects of the question.

    But it is true we have probably reached the most you are willing to share on a public forum, i.e
    You said that you can not resolve the contradiction (linguistic to you, technical to me) without divulging your secret technique.
    And in your last reply you said this:
    Which is good to hear, and actually provides answer to one aspect of my query.
    (btw I wasn't implying anything, I simply spelled out a couple of technical aspects as you refused to get technical yourself)

    We are.
    This specific belief though, is rooted in scientific principle.
    If you wish to offer a counter opinion which is based on science, and hopefully doesn't touch on the secrecy of your craft; I am open to hearing it.
    I am always willing to learn.

    I don't know Alkhadra. Most of what I do know, comes from the content of this very thread.
    If that is indeed true, then one might either appreciate his gift for memory, or admire his dedication to commit your words to memory.

    But I wasn't asking about Alkhadra, my questions were about Aroha ;).

    Well my detractors would like to say...
    Just messing with you! But I must say I had an itch to answer in that fashion, as it seems you're having all the fun going off on tangents. :)

    Agarwood. I've not 'worked with' anything. I've simply attempted in a hobbyist/amateur/for-the-experience-of-it fashion. Nothing of great interest to anybody other than me.
    I have no intention of becoming an agarwood distiller, and even if I woke up with that desire, I'm a man of limited means, I couldn't swim those waters.

    Hmm.
    Yet on the product page you say this:
    "You can tell this is a totally unique type of agarwood extract"
    I don't think you've used that terminology before for any other distilled oil.
    I do not commit all your words to memory though, nor have I read all of them. So if you have used it before, rather than take a random jab, just link to the previous use. Thanks.
    Though whether you have or not, the nomenclature is specific. It would constitute imprecise use, and we already know I champion precision.
    To me the product description and your above reply offer up another contradiction.

    Well firstly, I'm not going to advertise the fact that Ensar pointed me their way... (especially if you don't want me to)
    Secondly, I think you underestimate the importance and function 'of precision of language and purity of purport'.
    And lastly, if the worst that can happen to me is having someone call me a 'watermelon', I think I can muster up enough courage to address them! :) ;)
    Could you please name a Chinese incense making brand that competes for your shavings?

    Btw, what do you mean they would disown you?
    Are you competitors or collaborators?

    Was that really necessary?
    No. I mean Guallam Solide.

    salutations
     
  3. Alkhadra

    Alkhadra Well-Known Member

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    Have you forgotten Arabia? Just about every other person and his granny have their part in poetry. :p
     
  4. Ensar Oud

    Ensar Oud Well-Known Member

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    I was being sarcastic.

    I know that is the official business motto of our creative friends over at the other forum: "Ensar has an agenda, he is an English lit major," etc. They can't tell you anything about their own product, other than that it comes 'sans marketing', so their whole recipe for survival is founded on rebranding whoever paved the way.

    We speak, and our oils speak. I have an agenda, and that agenda is my oils. My oils have an agenda, and that agenda is to be the best thing you ever smelled.

    So far as I know, my oils never uttered a single dubious statement to your nose or anyone else’s, ever. ;)

    It is deeply unflattering – if not entirely impertinent and out of place – if you consider the reasoning behind systematically trumpeting this to the world the way they've been doing. The takehome message is: Ensar is a creative writer, the stuff he says is all literary 'fiction', our stuff comes without 'stories', the only difference between us and him is the 'story', etc.

    I beg to differ. And herein consist the 'jabs' you have perceived in my replies to you. (They are not 'jabs'. They are 'dodges' and defensive counter-jabs. For one to absolve oneself can never be considered a 'jab'.)

    As you pointed out, literacy and proper usage of English can hardly qualify as an 'unflattering credential'. I would like to take that one step further and add this for everyone to ponder: Whoever is artistically inclined in one field is likely to make a superior artist in another. Hence the Dostoevsky comparison: I'd much rather have a bottle of oil produced by someone immersed in poetry, painting or photography, than something sourced off Facebook and repackaged.

    If one doesn't have any 'stories' to narrate about how a product came to be, that only reflects their lack of involvement in the making of that product. Plain and simple.

    When a man sets forth a-sailing,
    He hath a tale to tell.

    I need to address as many people as I possibly can in the most succinct way possible. If I were to sit and start 'participating' on the forums, I'd have to stop working. As much as I love writing and celebrating my English Lit degree, I don't have time to write.

    If you’re as precise with your bookkeeping and giving others their due as you are with your language, I’ll be the first one to help you with that. ;)

    I wasn’t kidding about the fridge bit. If heat can play a crucial role in essential oil extraction, why can’t cold? :)

    In an ideal world, all competitors are collaborators. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  5. powdernose

    powdernose Member

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    Greetings,

    I thought you lacked the time for this...
    it seems, in the end, you have more time available than I do...
    (I should be sleeping)

    As was I ;)
    But let's not escape the truth behind the humour.
    I'll lay my cards down bare; I am not a fan of your more fanciful marketing.
    Beyond the marketing, you have to fulfill a product description, and product descriptions for essential oils, are best when scientifically precise.

    (So here we go, I'd made a point of sticking to technical issues, but as you keep circling back to this, I guess I'll have to reply)

    You make a couple of good points, and I'll list them bellow so you don't think we disagree on everything:
    I'll also give you your dues:
    Of the Ensaroud products I've tried, the quality ranges from good to very good.
    Specifically, Yunus and Kyara Koutan are very good oud oils.

    I think not.
    If only because I have one of those degrees hanging on my own wall.

    I'll take another stab at a guess though: Philosophy

    Regarding this point, I have laid out a scenario which removes 'story', marketing, and vendor bias from the equation.
    True, it is hosted at the 'other forum', but that does not invalidate its design or credibility.

    I appreciate the bravado and the intent.
    But respectfully, in my case, that has yet to happen.
    It is possible it might happen in the future, and if it does, I'll let you know.

    Really?
    Would you let Bukowski cook for you?

    Regardless, I can understand and respect that sentiment.

    Allow me to offer the obvious counterpoint to the overall argument though,
    Who distilled Yunus?

    These jabs are not merely perceived, they are very real.
    Also, the problem with this is, that talking to you you is like walking on eggshells.
    It seems almost impossible to say anything that will not trigger some defensive tirade or another.
    And what is most tiring about this, is that my own questions get disregarded.
    Note, that none of the questions I posed in the previous post received reply, in fact they received zero attention...

    Precision is a given ;)
    I'm not an accountant though, and my my trade only runs parallel to book-keeping,
    but if you're offering a job or sponsorship, I'll consider the offer ;)

    Sure,
    but 'cold' usually simply means lower distillation temps, and lower temps usually means reduced pressure, and reduced temps usually facilitate the protection of delicate volatiles.
    Personally, I think of key agarwood aromas as robust non-delicate basenotes.
    I'm at a loss with the 'fridge' process. If you can point to any relative scientific literature, I would appreciate it.

    Perhaps...
    If you can extend that courtesy to curmudgeonly Chinese incense makers,
    then why can you not to fellow agarwood distillers/traders?

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  6. Kruger

    Kruger Well-Known Member

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  7. powdernose

    powdernose Member

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    I have a stock reply for such responses.

    No one is forcing you to spend time here,
    feel free to be less bored elsewhere.
     
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  8. Kruger

    Kruger Well-Known Member

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    I wish I had a stock reply for this kind of interrogation, so I didn’t know what else to say :D A bit of comic relief, didn’t mean anything too serious by it.

    That said, I’m not totally free to be bored somewhere else because I’m involved in this enterprise, in case you didn’t know. When you bump your questions, feeling entitled to another’s knowledge, you are forcing me to spend time here. Not that I mind, of course. Yawn :eek:

    Anyway, I won’t presume to know your intentions. So, here’s why Liam Neeson Yawns on a Plane:

    You’re asking why Ensar lied/confused/mislead you when he said that he had not done resin conversion before, when apparently in one of his posts (#19786, I believe) he said that he had done it before when we made Aroha Kyaku. He said that resin conversion can happen in a number of ways, and when he answered that question he was replying with reference to a yield-boosting technique propagated by someone else.

    We have never employed this technique, nor have we ever seen it in action. We’ve only heard about it. Therefore, Ensar withdrew his endorsement of the technique simply because we don’t have firsthand experience with its practice. Yet, it keeps coming back ‘but you said you did it with Aroha!’ Please note, for the umpteenth time, that these are two different discussions entirely. When talking about the resin conversion involved in Aroha, the aim had nothing to do with yield boosting. In the latter, the main objective is to make the oil more affordable, whereas with Aroha the focus was on the incensifcation of the profile. The 'how' is totally different.

    Still, you might object: ’yeah, but he said it, he didn’t say it, he said it.’ To conclusively settle this matter for you would require us to differentiate between the techniques and go into the technical details involved. I’m afraid we aren’t going to do that.

    Any contradictions that remain, you would have to deal with. Feel free to ask whoever smelled the yield boosting technique to tell you more about that. However, if you’ve smelled Aroha, you’d perhaps appreciate the issue more. You’d smell that the incense is there, and that the resin is present, loud and clear, in the bottle. Many people—including distillers who have confessed their frustration at not being able to replicate Aroha’s über incense—are dying to find out these details.

    Ensar asked you, in private, a question as simple as ‘what is your name?’

    To which you replied ‘I am powdernose from basenotes. That’s all you need to know.’

    You won’t even tell him your name, but you insist (you do) that he dish out and divulge all his hard-earned know-how, techniques, and freely share his contacts? Some sarcasm is to be expected, don't you think?

    If you still feel entitled to an answer, perhaps try dedicating the next 15 years of your life in order to find and tweak this technique, then kindly share it with Juicedoctor14 on basenotes, whose name you don’t know and have no idea why his questions get bumped and why you’re accused of dodging questions that have in fact been answered very diplomatically.

    But again, I won’t assume what your intentions are. Perhaps you have a good reason to keep your name confidential. So, let’s keep this constructive. Tell me more about the best oud you’ve encountered. If you could share what it is you desire in an oud, what smell/s you’re after, what it is that makes you itch to find out all these nitty gritty details, we will strive to make that kind of oud—or, if it already exists, point you in its direction. Even though we don’t know your name. Because, in the end, that’s what we do. We make oud, resin converted or otherwise.
     
  9. Tuff

    Tuff Active Member

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    Praise Jesus can we lock this troll thread now. Although you might be tempted to respond to trolls by refuting things line by line, never ever ever do this. It's just a red cape in front of twitter trolls.

    When you're smeared online, there's a temptation to defend yourself, but this only amplifies the trolls message to your own supporters. You're spreading their virus by defending yourself. Unless your supporters are seeing the smear and have questions about it (which is rare these days, two universes), Ignore.

    You're smarter than this Ensar. Snark is costing you some of your best clients, and ruins any mystique you have taken pains to build. Let these other vendors and trolls bray into the void. It only showcases their impotence. Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
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  10. Kruger

    Kruger Well-Known Member

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    Good to hear from you, Tuff. Yeah, we don't have any video games at the office, so sometimes we get sucked into other never-ending spirals :confused:. Thanks for the advice. I'm taking it.
     
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  11. JohnH

    JohnH Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been keeping an eye on things and I feel that this conversation has to stop now.

    Any further posts that try to keep the more recent discussion going will be deleted without notification. As Ensar has stated previously he is not obliged to answer every single question asked here or any at all if he chooses not to and when the questioning just keeps on coming with what seems to be a bit of attitude it does turn into something very similar to trolling. I'm not sure if that is the intention but it certainly looks that way to me.

    If @powdernose or anyone else has any questions regarding this then please PM me.

    Thanks.

    John
     
  12. ~A Coburn

    ~A Coburn Well-Known Member

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    The End of Oud is very real:
    Borneo Forests.png
     

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