SOTD

Taha

Well-Known Member
@Ensar, I haven't smelled that oil myself, but isn't it possible that ASII was extracted from Malaysian Crassna? I can confirm from first-hand experience with a Kelantan batch of wood my hunters brought back in early 2015, that there is some straight-up Crassna in Kelantan, or at the very least some specie that is very similar to Crassna. Actually, this particular batch of wood was SO unusual that for quite some time I kept burning the wood and stared at Ahmad, and exclaimed something like "did we just harvest the first ever Malaysian kinam?!"
It was that unusual.

I can also confirm from the local grapevine that Al Shareef have a very strong presence in Kelantan, so perhaps he also utilized a Kelantan batch similar to that 2015 harvest we got.
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
@Ensar, I haven't smelled that oil myself, but isn't it possible that ASII was extracted from Malaysian Crassna?
Of course it is! This is why I made sure to clarify I was sharing my personal experience of the oil, independent of what the vendor has said about it. Some people are genuinely curious to know what you and I smell when we smell these things, and quite frankly I think it's counterproductive that producers are not encouraged to share their unbiased reactions to contemporary distillations. Just look at the way you interpreted Sultan Ahmet – or the entire Sultan Series for that matter.... Has any single ouddict been able to see any of those oils under the same light since? I think this should become standard practice.

LOL... I remember back on the old BN thread you once compared my Royal Kinam to nagarmotha... I have to tell you, I thought that was rather bold on your part, but I didn't go on a tirade the length of the New York Times to prove you wrong. I said, whoever has Royal Kinam can smell it for themselves.... The oil speaks for itself. If Taha jaan smells 'nag' in it as he says, then so be it! It's his opinion – it's a discussion forum, at the end of the day – and I'm not going to put a vendetta out on him!
 

Oudamberlove

Well-Known Member
We shouldn't have to tip-toe around the forums.
All personal experiences with an oil is just that, personal.
Producers reviewing other producer's oils should be encouraged.
 

PEARL

Well-Known Member
About this subject, I'm not conflicted and I'm very conflicted...

What I'm not conflicted about... I'm not conflicted about the validity of the provenance and quality of wood and methods of distillation as outlined by the multigenerational artisan Al Shareef, and have no reason to doubt him. And, I'm not conflicted about Ensar's own personal review and assessment about the oil in question, I have no reason to doubt him.

What I am very conflicted about... Part of me wants to reach out to my brother Ensar, by the neck mind you, and tell him that although he's not under arrest, he should have exercised his right to remain silent. And that for two reasons-first and foremost is that as an artisan his review has the ability draw doubt towards another artisan, cause damage and further split an already war torn community. Secondly, if his simple OPINION is found to be contrary to the truth, it has the ability to draw doubt towards his expertise in matters of his vocation. Part of me wants to reach out to my brother Al Shareef, with open arms mind you, and make some sort of apology for something I didn't say because what was said has the ability to draw doubt, or at least concern, towards him and his product as evidenced by friends and clients wanting him to respond.

But then I ask myself, is all we want to see and read are the positive and glowing reviews that never, ever, ever get questioned? Do we want the kind of censorship where one is only able to review an oil in a good light? There was a brief conversation here about how people review and most stated that they only post positive reviews. What that showed me is that most of us, and people in general, live by the unwritten code, "if you can't say something good about a thing, don't say anything". And then you have some that feel that subjective opinion, even when it's stated as such, has to be qualified or quantified by definitive proof, when in fact it's just an opinion. And others that feel as if your opinion is "too positive" you must be secret agent. Should we just stop the review section altogether?

Me thinks that as a community we have to decide if we only want positive reviews or if we want someone's own honest, maybe not objectively factual, OPINION. Should we be afraid to say something that can be taken as "bad" about an oil or should we be afraid to say something "too good" about an oil. What should a review be if not our own individual experience with an oil? I remain conflicted...
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
@PEARL: OK. But is it the interpretation of investigational practical impracticality conversely, in which the derivative inverse often correlates exponentially?

I get you brotha.... I get you.... :D
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
My personal opinion is that reviews and opinions based on actual experience that are not explicitly or solely inflammatory in nature are entirely fair game. Attacks on character or reputation without crystal clear reasons are not.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Of course it is! This is why I made sure to clarify I was sharing my personal experience of the oil, independent of what the vendor has said about it. Some people are genuinely curious to know what you and I smell when we smell these things, and quite frankly I think it's counterproductive that producers are not encouraged to share their unbiased reactions to contemporary distillations. Just look at the way you interpreted Sultan Ahmet – or the entire Sultan Series for that matter.... Has any single ouddict been able to see any of those oils under the same light since? I think this should become standard practice.

LOL... I remember back on the old BN thread you once compared my Royal Kinam to nagarmotha... I have to tell you, I thought that was rather bold on your part, but I didn't go on a tirade the length of the New York Times to prove you wrong. I said, whoever has Royal Kinam can smell it for themselves.... The oil speaks for itself. If Taha jaan smells 'nag' in it as he says, then so be it! It's his opinion – it's a discussion forum, at the end of the day – and I'm not going to put a vendetta out on him!
"Except for those who repent and correct themselves and proclaim..." [Verse 2:160]
Since what I naively stated on BN way back when, was in public, I see it only fit to proclaim my retraction in public too.
No doubt, Royal Kinam was the epitome of the "clean Sinesis" genre, and utterly unique. My comment about the similarities to Nag, or carrot seed or whatever else should have at most been stated as scent notes (the way we talk about e.g. honey in Kalbar or prune in Pursat ouds).
And even those scent notes observations btw, I have to take back as well. Nag is overbearing, carrot seed is nauseating.... and Royal Kinam is.. well.. let's just say I didn't end up getting a bottle because I hated it. ;)
 

Kruger

Well-Known Member
@PEARL: Great insights, and difficult questions to answer! Many might think it better to sweep the topic under the rug, but it’s a theme that pops up repeatedly, so I thought we might as well explore it a bit more, perhaps to learn something new and also to be fair to all parties involved.

Ensar puts his neck on the line all the time. It’s probably one of the things he’s most known for. I’m sure he’s aware of how that could reflect on him, in case it goes bad. I think most would agree that’s fine, for him to voice an opinion and possibly be proven wrong. The burden will be his to carry. But, of course, the problem lies in him voicing his opinion about another vendor’s product.

The ‘bashing the competition’ ban, while it leaves us all being very polite and friendly, also leaves many at a loss. If people didn’t call out certain dealers as they have done in the past, many of us would have ended up with some really nasty stuff. At the least, purchases like that can hit you financially, but at worse they can turn you off from oud altogether without you ever even getting your foot in the door. So, criticism – sometimes direct and brutal – has its place, and I believe many people have been saved by it. But again, the problem is that these words of caution should preferably come from an end user. If a seller does it, it’s considered bad form.

Ensar said that a certain oil smells like a cultivated Thai one. I know for a fact that he wasn’t aware of any details about this oil other than who made it (and I was present when he smelled it the first time). That was simply his impression. It smells like a well soaked Thai oil. The funny thing is, I had the exact same reaction he did. And we both got to try it on two separate occasions, both times with the same impression – except, the second time it smelled even more soaked. (Learning that it was a clay soak explained it.)

Then it comes out that this oil is Malaysian.

Neither Ensar or I meant to say that the distiller tried to trick anybody – there are plenty of Malaysian ouds available, so it’s not like he needed to come up with a rarity. That’s not the point. The fact that a Malaysian wood of such high quality ended smelling like a Thai one can mean many things, not necessarily negative. In fact, one could commend the distiller for the ability to achieve such a result.

From our corner, we didn’t just say it smells Thai without much experience with Thai oils (or Malay profiles for that matter).

When you’re attempting to capture the smell of wild Cambodian oud, your first job isn’t to know what Cambodian oud ought to smell like – it’s to know what Thai ouds smell like. Even if you’re distilling any Indonesian or Malaysian ouds, it’s your job to know what Thai oils smell like, just as it’s your job to be able to identify Malaysian wood if you’re on the hunt for wild wood in Cambodia. That’s because if you’re after the more ‘authentic’ Malaysian scent, you have to be aware that there are thousands of crassnas imported to Malaysia from Thailand (which might explain the current case).

Not only have we gone through great lengths to capture Cambodian scents, we’ve also offered an assortment of different-smelling Thai oils. In order to pursue variety, you have to be intimately familiar with run-of-the-mill stuff. And believe me, there’s a lot of oud in Trat, most of which are simply permutations of the same smell, so much so that identifying a Trat distill is like spotting a Hyundai sedan amidst a row of Vespa motorcycles.

If an inexperienced nose has trouble telling the difference between, say, Basic Kinam and Thai Phalaka, fine. But for somebody whose bread and butter is to know what Thai oud smells like, to pick up a Thai pitch in a Malaysian oil… that tells you something. And I think it’s worth hearing.

Of course you can extract a myriad scents from Malaysian wood. Ensar has done exactly that many times himself during his industrious 2 years in this business. I guess all Ensar, and myself, are saying is that this particular oil got the Thai fraction from that myriad. How or why doesn’t concern either of us. That goes back to the distiller.

* * *

Another way to approach this issue is the way we as oud vendors have to tackle the same scenario. We constantly get asked to sample oils to give our opinion. In the end, it’s hardly ever a question of a Malay oil that smells like a Thai. It’s normally a matter of purity. It’s amazing to find out how people have been stuck with blatant synthetics thinking they’re delving deeper into the world of oud. Many folks are unable to discern ‘white musk’ from ‘blue oud’. How then when it comes to the real deal?

We also constantly get contacted from people in the oud world who want to work with us in some way or another. And I’ll be brutally honest, I’m not sure which discovery is more shocking – what passes as oud to consumers, or the stuff that gets passed as oud within the oud world. Oud is basically a game of rejection. And I don’t mean rejecting agarwood because it’s not good enough. I mean because of fabrication, adulteration, and sheer mockery.

I’ll give you an example. One ‘experienced distiller’ whose family has been in the business for generations contacts you. He tells you he can supply you, even help you improve the quality of your oils. That sounds good, who doesn’t want to improve? So, you ask him for more info, some pictures of his wood, etc. When you hear back from him, you find out that good agarwood looks like this:

Sinking.jpg

....and that pure oud oil should have a wonderfully fluorescent burgundy hue like this:

SyntheticAssam.jpg

Now, you’re an oud company. The guy might honestly be trying to reach out. He really does want to work with you and really believes that he can help. His family has been in the business forever, after all. But, even if you’ve only been in the business for 2, 5 or 10 years, you know that no matter how well-intentioned the guy is, his goods are bogus and he obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about. So, you simply tell him ‘better luck next time’.

HOWEVER, it’s not the same on the user’s end. Many end users who are new to oud get bombarded with everything BUT real oud, or real low-grade stuff. They might end up buying this funky glow-in-the-dark purple business and use that as a point of departure… and steer waaaay off course. Should somebody tell this person he/she’s being duped, or just brush it under the carpet and let them figure it out the hard way?
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
I am in agreement with my fellow moderator. Nothing wrong with opinions so long as they are not inherently personal.

Getting the thread back on track, last night I had Taha's Sucre et Brun. A very nice and surprisingly very long lasting oil. This morning it was still going strong.

Today it is Koh Kong 76. Red sweet deliciousness!
 
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bhanny

Well-Known Member
Nice post Kruger!
The forums should be a good resource for ouducation.
I value the input of all oud producers.
Agreed. We are lucky to have several experts in the field routinely post here. Awesome post and interesting pictures of..is that fossilized agarwood Kruger?
 

m.arif

Active Member
Had a chance to visit Taha recently.

SOTD (scent of that day). 3 oils that are not fully "tightened" yet, as per Taha's terminology. A bunch of ambergris (raw materials) ! And some others.


I'll start with Mahabali first. We know Taha's oils are generally far from having the barnyard note. Well guess what, this hindi is as close as you can get to a barnyard oil crafted by Taha.

It has all the oomph, punch, and a barn/not really barn opening, but no off putting or nauseating notes. It pulls me back for more, although in general I'm not a fan of the mainstream barn note in oud available in the mass market..Then the richness and depth of the oil emerges. A hindi oud through and through, all the way to the dry down

It has great sillage, I could smell it even after 12 hours ( take note that the spot it was applied got rinsed with water quite a number of times). One of the richest, yet grounding ouds I've smelled so far. Not airy, not ethereal.

I'd imagine this is what a classic hindi genre (that fits my taste) would smell like. But then again personal experiences and tastes are subjective.

One of my favourite AA oils I've smelled so far. Wasn't expecting a hindi to be near the top in my favourites list.

Once it's released it would be fully "tightened" , and at it's peak. But taha said some of the oils he showed me might be 2018 releases or further though.

Maybe I should start a thread documenting my visits.hmm
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
@m.arif That sounds great! You are fortunate indeed to live so close to Taha. What a great opportunity to experience these oils throughout their evolution before release. A very unique opportunity it is. A more traditional Hindi a la Taha style? Sign me up!!!!

For me the Swipe O' the Day is Oud Ahmad. What a decadent, musky perfume this is.
 

m.arif

Active Member
@kesiro indeed a great opportunity. Taha being such a wonderful host adds to the experience :) Well, there's still the Lao oils, merauke, acheh, all in line waiting to be released. Patience is virtue. Haha

AA Fera. The second hindi I tried the other day. Also not fully ready. Veery animalic. When I say animalic, it's not barn. Opens up with plenty of ambergris notes (the side by side comparison with raw ambergris helped a lot in understanding this oil), a bit of "dirty" kind of animalic later on. Taha said it's close to hyraceum, but I've never smelled that before. The hindi DNA lingers in the background, and gets even more apparent in the last stages of the dry down, easier for a novice to link the dots. Since Taha's style is to bring out the scent of the wood itself into the oil without any adjustments, it surprises me that wood can contain such notes.

The two oils, Fera and Mahabali were very strong ouds. I almost got my sinus overloaded and being done for the day, but took a long break from smelling anything. Thankfully it worked.
 

kesiro

Well-Known Member
Today is Kinam Rouge. To me this is a lift your mood, lively scent. The weather has been very dreary here and this helps brighten things up!