Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

Ensar, Reading your blog posts about the End Of Oud were both poignant and heartbreaking, you should think seriously about writing. a book on your experiences.

You are probably right from a financial and historical perspective to go after the wilds right now and ignore cultivation for the moment but the world for me would be a duller, sadder place without Oud worthy of the name in the future, and I intend to live for a very long time indeed.

Reading about Oud Yusuf and in the case of Adam's Mai Bo Rai's truly natural, mixed use organic plantations (gutted that I missed buying some, Adam, gutted!) was poetry and brought hope for the future of Oud.

I know that in some countries, Thailand for sure, that there are restrictions on farangs owning land itself however according to thaiguru there are valid ways around these restrictions, so allow me to make a proposal here.

A Kickstarter.

Buying or renting previously prime growing areas on private / goverment land that have been despoiled by careless, wanton destruction that were deforestrated by the lost and the damned. Because of this, it might be possible to get the best potential 'terroir' for the smallest outlay. Some money might have to be used for soil regeneration, but might that not be worth it?

Now, the second part of my idea... It's been disturbing to read of Taha's accounts of his hunters being robbed and similar accounts, after the trees are planted and allowed to mature for decades upon decades before resination over further decades, perhaps helped along by vintage Vietnam war era bullets, what is to prevent a gang of thieves from just coming along and levelling our precious Aquilaria?

Ecotourism.

Luxe or Semi-Luxe treehouses or glamping. All solar powered, all mod cons.

Why pay for security when You, I, Bhanny, Shabby and also just unrelated green friendly paying guests who are relaxing amongst some of the semi-wild plantations drinking profitable kyara teas and coffee? One sniff of a chainsaw and we get on the phone to the local police or army who's local big cheeses have been invited to stay as guests from time to time for free, of course and they bring uniforms with very big guns and handcuffs on the fly. Soon this would discourage the very naughty boys.

Not just by and for you artisans but also for we Oudlovers. Our more modest contribution would get us, for example, reduced prices (had to say that being Scottish!) or guaranteed quantities availble for purchase per year as well as visits.

Your thoughts, everyone?

Edit: I will cross post this on the cultivation sub-forum, admins please feel free to delete this if you wish!

I told Osman Özçay to think about writing a Hilya in full thuluth one time.... He said: "I've thought about writing a hilya in thuluth... but I just thought about it!" (For those who may not be familiar with Arabic calligraphy, thuluth is the most difficult script to write in, and a Hilya is so ornate and long it would take months to write one in thuluth.)

All the talk about diapers and kids not sleeping at night keeping their parents up sounds awfully familiar to me. My three little ones keep me busy most of the day (and sometimes night). I'm lucky I'm married to a Singaporean, so I can live just a hop away from most of my distilleries, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do anything at all with my life until a few years from now.... Writing a book is going to have to be postponed until my hands are freed up a little from this most challenging task of being a father....

@ensar I guess I'm going through the "lite version" of daddy life with a 10 month old daughter right now. Excited and worried at the same time for what's to come.

Here's a topic I've been wondering for some time now. Sometimes I see people describing a scent as having horizontal and vertical depth, a sign of complexity and I assume quality as well.

Can you guys elaborate and what is that horizontal and vertical depth as best as you can? I'm sure it's hard to do so with mere words though..

Hey m.arif, what is meant by horizontal complexity is the multitude of notes that come at you all at once when smelling any phase of the oil's evolution, whether on your skin or applicator, or test strip. A blended perfume will obviously have more 'horizontal' complexity than a standalone essential oil like oud, because of all the aromatics that have been paired together to create as 'complex' and 'harmonious' a scent as possible. The very best ouds though will display horizontal complexity to match the finest blended perfumes.

Vertical complexity is the number of 'phases' an oil will go through as it 'unfolds' on the skin. So if it starts sweet and spicy then turns floral then turns gourmand then turns woody, that's a sign of vertical complexity. A fine oud is not necessarily as complex vertically as it is horizontally. If you start off with the scent of kinam, the trick is to maintain the same note throughout the evolution, and not have the aroma shapeshift into other things. But vertical complexity is not in and of itself undesirable. A dead giveaway of a synthetic is that it doesn't evolve (i.e. vertically), rather it just fades and fades while it remains one and the same scent. Natural aromatics alone can produce true vertical complexity.

@Ensar thank you for the elaboration. Very clear. I was trying out some "cambodi ouds" at local shops, and there was this overly sweet scent common in all the "cambodis" I've tried, only difference was the potency. It was albeit perfumey, and it lingers for very long! Would this be the DOP you're allergic to?

Speaking of synthetics and cambodis, with all these deals coming out I noticed that the Galiyah Al Phoenix oils are still being promoted on Rising Phoenix etsy site. Those looking for natural ghaliyahs probably would want to look elsewhere. Unfortunately the Cambodi 1985 in it is synthetic. At 500$+ It should really not be promoted as a natural composition if all the components are not free of adulteration and synthetics.

thanks

Just curious, any proof of the Cambodi 1985 being synthetic?

That is a very serious claim. What evidence do you have of this? I have no knowledge of this but I sense an agenda.

@Taherg. I am not sure what your motivation is. I have known JK for a while and he is one of the most straight up honest guys I have ever dealt with. Your post reeks of hidden agenda. So I called JK to find out what is going on. It is clear that you admitted to blackmailing him (your own words, not mine).
Apparently you sampled some of his products, loved them and purchased them. Then you demanded your money back up front, refusing to send the products back first. All, with a fully up front disclosed no refund policy that is universal in the scent industry.

I have no relationship with JK beyond a customer, nor any other vendor here, and it is completely inappropriate for you , or anyone, to come here and actively try to ruin their reputations and business. Especially since whatever issues you two had were already resolved. To your terms no less!

I have no personal agenda against JK, I have a personal agenda against impure oils being sold as pure...from anyone.

Jk is a very talented perfumer, anyone who has tried his formulations can easily testify to that. Some of his perfumes are amongst my favourites.

My comment was exclusively with regards to that particular oil. It smells very nice, but it should not be advertised as having pure oud if that is not the case. I will not even attempt to extend that to his other oils which may very well be pure and problem-free.

I have said in many posts that vendors need to put their name and reputation behind oils they sell and should be able to quality assure...otherwise refrain from selling them or admit openly that they simply think it is pure oud and they are no more expert than you or I in discerning the reality behind that opinion.

From an objective and practical standpoint, I have several problems with what you say.
First, you cite no evidence to substantiate what you claim regarding purity. You just made a claim. Second, and even more importantly, you insinuate that JK knowingly misled or misrepresented one of his products. There is NO evidence of this whatsoever. Reputable sources of oils, which I have no doubt JK uses, represent their products as pure, or not. I assume that one man shops like JK's cannot pay for analysis of everything they source. Lastly, claiming that specifically one oil out of a complex mixture is not pure makes no logical sense. There is no way to even scientifically test that once it is blended in.
None of this involves me directly so after this post, I am done.
I think this forum, and members here expect and try to maintain a certain decorum. Coming on here with unsubstantiated accusations, undeserved disparaging comments, especially when "your" particular issue has been amicably resolved, is inconsistent with the class of this forum and its posters.

Now now gentlemen, let's calm down before we have another BN meltdown. There is nothing that a group of gentlemen (albeit passionate Oudhead) can't resolve peacefully over constructive discussion.

@Taherg
Now while I totally agree with you that vendors should stake their reputation on their products that they sell; the coin flipped both ways and we as consumers have to justify our claim when we said that certain products are not of certain standard. It should not be a case of "I think this is impure...", "I heard someone said so..." and etc.

Now similarly I do not have any relationship with JK beyond customer. I had bought some stuff from him in the past and had some indifferences with some of the products. But he was a great guy who is willing to listen to consumer and we resolved the issue amicably. Just as you said, sometimes they can be 'no more expert' than you and me. They can make mistake and if they do, what matters is everyone is aware of it, learn from the mistake and move on.

My 2cent worth.

I'd first like to say that my experience with oud oils(pure and adulterated), various other essential oils, synthetic aroma-chemicals, modern perfumery and how I interact with them, has led me to TRUST that the few vendors I deal with do deliver pure oud oils.

There have been times when other members have made claims about oils from certain vendors that I trust. And just as some members have done here, I championed, supported and defended those vendors; asking for definitive proof from those who have made such claims. I now truly realize that my request was really only half of the story, neglecting the other side of the coin. Despite the fact the I TRUST those vendors, I've never asked them to provide any definitive proof to support their claims of purity. If one is to hold someone accountable for making claims of impurity, then they should also hold the vendor accountable to substantiate claims of purity, and that's not being done. As Taherg states, it only comes down to a matter of opinion and nothing new is gained, save for the fact that it often pits member against member.

Also, despite the fact that results of GCMS can be falsified and altered, I do believe it to be a step in the right direction for the trusted vendors in providing them. In this day and age I really don't know why vendors choose not to.

Oud_Learner- I agree with you on everything you said. In no way was I trying to sink this to the nadir of a basenotes meltdown, but I think the kind of post made above needs to be put down, probably deleted. Serves no purpose other than to cause trouble.

I always welcome and respect your input here. You make very valid points. The problem is that taherg did not say it comes down to opinion. He flat out stated it was synthetic.
As for the testing, I think the reason small houses do not do it is prohibitive costs. They cannot absorb them, and passing them onto the consumers may be the only way. If they are willing to accept them.

- - - Updated - - -

I always welcome and respect your input here. You make very valid points. The problem is that taherg did not say it comes down to opinion. He flat out stated it was synthetic.
As for the testing, I think the reason small houses do not do it is prohibitive costs. They cannot absorb them, and passing them onto the consumers may be the only way. If they are willing to accept them.

I think a simple, yet profound response to Pearl's "I don't know why they choose not to" comment, comes from white Lotus aromatics.

"Dear Friends-
Kind greetings!
Periodically I like to send out a reminder to everyone to kindly read the HOW TO ORDER section of the website
as it contains important information about the parameters in which Suzanne and I operate White Lotus Aromatics.
http://www.whitelotusaromatics.com/about/how_to_order

In brief are a two person operation endeavoring to supply lovely essences(co2 extracts, absolutes, essential oils, etc) but we have not entered into the realm of paperwork documentation which some companies may require.

The only available documentation is the MSDS and COA posted on the website for each essence.

We do not provide batch specific gc/ms, allergen reports, third part organic certification, etc. If paperwork is central to what you do we would like to suggest that you work with a company larger than us.
Christopher

PS the MSDS and COA can be accessed by clicking on the name of any essence in the shopping area which will take you to a page with an olfactory description of that oil. At the bottom of the page is the COA and MSDS buttons which can be pressed to bring up those pages
PSS Bottles do not come with orifice reducers"

In other words, "we are a small company and the myriad paperwork and documentation is not feasible"

Personally - I have well over 1,000 materials on hand. Even if I tested half of them - @$300 bucks a pop to test...do the math. And considering I have a constant influx of materials - it is absolutely not feasible for a small business to tackle the paperwork.

I would also like to mention - this same issue was brought up on Ouddict today. I awoke to emails from the Admins letting me know that they had already removed one rabble rouser from the forum for their unsubstantiated trouble.

The also asked me for quite a bit of info, which I provided - they dropped the issue in light of the surmounting evidence in my favor, including the blatant proof that's Taher has been trying to blackmail my company. He admitted to it, and that proof was provided. That pretty much closed the case over there on Ouddict.

That's 1 oil. I have thousands of them.

We can argue about it ad nauseum. It's not as straightforward as one might like to think.

Either way - as Christopher from White Lotus elequently put - it's just not feasible.

In the current oud market there are really only two things that consumers and vendors can do.
Consumers
~Build your knowledge base, familiarize yourself with different oils, familiarize yourself with adulterants and how to identify them in composition.
~Trust that vendors you patronize only sell the type of products you want to purchase.

Vendors
~Invest in your own brand, do what's necessary to ensure your patrons quality and purity, be transparent if you don't know.
~Build a reputation that ensures trust that you do provide quality, pure products, thereby shielding yourself from accusations of impure products.

Consumers and vendors can do one, the other or both. Anything else is just making excuses, If you don't have time to oversee a large catalog, scale back. If you're overwhelmed by administrative duties, scale back.

While I have no dog in the race, this matter comes down to opinion and who is the more expert among the experts. Neither party provided any substantiation on purity vs impurity. It's left up to the public to decide who to believe, and I don't think it should be that way.

It is probably worth noting that there has yet to be a rejection of the claim. Silence means that probably the vendor does not want to explicitly put their reputation behind the oil at this point. Thats not right in my opinion.
The problem is, it was flagged as being synthetic directly to him long ago...the oil should have been removed off the listing immediately where it is claimed to be a genuine composition unlike conventional ghaliyah formulations which contain synthetics. Many would have bought that believing it to be pure and natural while there is a big question mark on that even for him..so why continue to sell it?

I just feel there needs to be more responsible behaviour. If one is not confident in their ability to discern (or has repeated incidents of misjudgement) of pure Oud from oud containing synthetics or even non-oud oils...they should not be selling them or at least take the available means to gaining some confidence on it before putting their name and price tag on it.

In my opinion, no vendor should make Oud oils or compositions containing Oud available under their name unless they are willing to stand behind the purity and quality, there should be affirmation rather than indifference in leaving it to the interpretation of the buyer as to whether it is 'intended' to be pure oud or not.
One should also not make the claim that it is 100% pure "because they themselves did not directly adulterate the Oud". We as consumers trust the name and reputation and the quality assurance that goes with it.

JK is a talented perfumer but we should not confuse that with discernment of quality/purity in Oud, especially when there is no involvement in its distillation. I would encourage him to source oud from vendors who confidently put their name behind their Oud and perhaps use those to make his perfumes. It is a shame to waste such a talent due to the use of questionable raw materials, particularly Oud which is a critical and marketable component.

There are certainly some point to ponder. But in general, to me it is a detestable tactic to accuse someone of malfeasance, and then when they choose not to engage further, claim that proves your accusation is true.