Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

[Luigi]

Unfortunately, it’s time for me to step in:

As a public forum, members should not feel restrained from voicing negative feedback. The aim of this forum is to dissect information and, as this thread’s title explains, we have a platform for a detailed discourse of oud. Seeing that not all ouds and outlets were created equal, suspicion is for many of us the default position we take to oud. That will inevitably entail criticism. However, that does not mean the decorum of the discussion should be jeopardized. Criticism is welcome, provided it be voiced respectfully.

The manner in which this debate has been brought up and the way it has escalated since then could have been approached more wisely, especially the unexpected and forthright manner in which Taherg instigated the topic. That being said, the topic raised is valid and has its place in a discussion forum where the question of purity is part and parcel of the substance at hand. If members feel any particular claim directed at any particular oud is absurd or unfounded then they are free to counter the claim, politely, and request the needed back-up.

As for the animosity directed towards Taherg from other members, his reputation will be affected thereby. As somebody with a history posting relevant and beneficial knowledge previously, on other forums as well, he knowing put his name on the line. That’s for him to deal with. But objectively, the contents of his post did not violate any forum rules and is not essentially a negative contribution. Although the tone of his posts, and the reactions against them, have been counter to the impeccable decorum we have seen here so far, I don’t feel the theme raised is counter to the spirit of a public, educational, forum and therefore don’t see reason enough to delete any threads, posts or ban anybody quite yet...

HOWEVER: The current topic is closed. Any further back and forth will be deleted. What has been said so far will remain, except that I will remove some of the 'name calling'. Members here will not tolerate any personal attacks directed at anybody, no matter how personal or heated the discussion may get. The question of blackmail and what went on behind the scenes between buyer and seller is personal and does not provide sufficient reason to disregard an unrelated concern being addressed, i.e. the contents of a perfume, and neither does this kind of discourse have any place here.

So. no further comments or rebuttals or accusations that pertain to this particular topic are necessary or useful from hereon out and will be deleted, so let’s all get back on track.

Thank you all. Now, if you will all excuse me, it’s time for my afternoon swipe…

 

[bhanny]

@Luigi. What is your afternoon swipe?

 

[Taha]

BTW, I just got an idea.... What if we were to develop a special product line, just for Gaharu members? We provide a handsome discount to everyone who is an active contributor, and even offer exclusive releases, available to members only?

@Taha, what do you think of that?

@Luigi could be the distiller-in-chief....

@JK does all the paperwork – GCMS, CITES, import and export red tape, you name it....

And you (@Adam) can sleep with the pot and condensers....

While I admire the charms of @5MeO's sister (oils delivered) and she turns out to be one of the houris....

And we all enjoy the tunes of @Joyoud's parrot's take on "Ode to Joy" together....

I almost forgot to add that @Oud_Learner can be in charge of the V-vials, pipettors and cryogenic labels

Count me in!
I should (ugh, finally!) be leaving for the next trip within the next few days. I would like to apologize to everyone for my long silence, here and in general. We hit some very unexpected hurdles (all the Cambodian hunters got deported!), so we were trying to sort out that mess. After a nearly 2-week delay, it looks like things should finally be moving forward now.
Hey, maybe if we all get together and pray real hard and I hit the jackpot, I could donate part of the harvest for this project...?
Still gotta see if Adam would be willing to sleep with the pots though.

 

[Luigi]

@Luigi. What is your afternoon swipe?

As the potential distiller-in-chief, I am required to put my nose through bootcamp, so I couldn't settle for just a swipe...... I ended up with a Borneo on my left arm, a Cambodi on my right hand and Thai on my right arm!

 

[Oud Learner]

As the potential distiller-in-chief, I am required to put my nose through bootcamp, so I couldn't settle for just a swipe...... I ended up with a Borneo on my left arm, a Cambodi on my right hand and Thai on my right arm!

Lol wouldn't you get olfactory fatigue? Personally If I were to put so much scents around me, I realize I am no longer capable of differentiating them.

 

[Oud Learner]

BTW, I just got an idea.... What if we were to develop a special product line, just for Gaharu members? We provide a handsome discount to everyone who is an active contributor, and even offer exclusive releases, available to members only?


I almost forgot to add that @Oud_Learner can be in charge of the V-vials, pipettors and cryogenic labels

Yeah! Great idea!

 

[bhanny]

As the potential distiller-in-chief, I am required to put my nose through bootcamp, so I couldn't settle for just a swipe...... I ended up with a Borneo on my left arm, a Cambodi on my right hand and Thai on my right arm!

Oh yes, I often triple or quadruple swipe! Colder weather here is a bummer, long sleeves equals double swipe max!

 

[bhanny]

BTW, I just got an idea.... What if we were to develop a special product line, just for Gaharu members? We provide a handsome discount to everyone who is an active contributor, and even offer exclusive releases, available to members only?

@Taha, what do you think of that?

@Luigi could be the distiller-in-chief....

@JK does all the paperwork – GCMS, CITES, import and export red tape, you name it....

And you (@Adam) can sleep with the pot and condensers....

While I admire the charms of @5MeO's sister (oils delivered) and she turns out to be one of the houris....

And we all enjoy the tunes of @Joyoud's parrot's take on "Ode to Joy" together....

I almost forgot to add that @Oud_Learner can be in charge of the V-vials, pipettors and cryogenic labels

I would most definitely be in!

 

[Taha]

I have some very sad news to share. I got word from Ahmad yesterday that Immigresen at the Kedah border detained Sarit (Amab's dad, and one of my best veteran hunters). Well, today Ahmad tried his bet to convince them to let him go. Sadly, they refused. The good news though, is that he's out of detention, and Ahmad managed to arrange a ride for him back to Cambodia.
Sarit asked Ahmad to convey his apologies to ME. And that broke my heart. I had just finished writing an email to a customer about this hunter situation just 10 minutes before Ahmad conveyed the news, so I'll take the opportunity to share that very same email here. Sorry, its sorta all over the place (and there's probably a bunch of spelling and grammatical errors), but I'm just gonna copy-paste it exactly as-is (except for censoring out a customer name).

Agarwood doesn't grow on the internet. It grows in treacherous jungles. So let's take a moment to look past 'online oud' issues for a moment... and turn out attention to where oud actually comes from.
Sarit, I am sharing this email as a homage to all your services. And although we have to proceed with this hunting trek without you, I will try to sort things out for the next trek and would love to have you by my side!

Side note: the email was actually about "Gen3", to a customer who finally 'cracked' this genre. And so I wrote this email to give her a deeper understanding as to why Gen3 is the way it is. I go over the hunter issue in there, and I also discuss the overall perilous nature of this industry. So I think everyone can take away something from this email.

Begin quote:

*SMACK!*
(that was the hi-five)

Yep, you're right, its quite simple in theory. And although its hard to wrap your head around at first (and you'll see that mentioned a lot on forums and also in the reviews at the bottom of the product pages), once it clicks, this Gen3 characteristic is plain as daylight.

Okay, so the story might seem a bit strange, but if you try to put yourself in my shoes, I think it'll make some sense (I hope!)...

As you may know, I had a rather nice job back in Canada, I was head of business intelligence at PwC across Canada. My own boss didn't even know what I did or how I did it, so I was essentially my own boss. The pay was good, I made my own schedule, life was good.
Then I quit, and moved here. For oud.
...after having essentially committed career suicide. : /

interjection: just now, the very thing that I was going to get to, later in this email, just happened. Its something hunter-related, and I'll get to that below. Sorry for the delay in replying, but this hunter issue was quite urgent, and needed attending to. So I'm returning back to the draft email after a day.

Any how, so after moving here, I noticed more and more how much yuckiness is going on in the oud scene. Its like Adam said somewhere, even with 'pure oud' you gotta be careful, because the way most of these distillers cook their oils, they're really careless. Spitting everywhere, smoking and tossing butts, drinking beer.. its all quite nasty. : S
This was one of the first triggers, that made me overly-OCD about purity (and hence obsessing with crafting the most untainted expression of the oleoresin).
But more importantly, I am seeing the dwindling of wild agarwood in front of my own eyes. I came here thinking I'd hopefully hit the jackpot and score a bunch of Chinese Super-King grade trees.
Instead, I've been robbed, cheated, and one time my hunters in Thailand were even held at gun-point and told to hand over all the harvested wood (yep, the gang actually waited until all the wood cleaning and carving was done!), which of course they had to. Earlier this year, I was robbed of every last splinter of wood I owned, by a sleazy man who I can't touch, due to political reasons. : S
And lately, I've been going on hunting treks myself as well. Snakes, quicksand, eye-gouging vines (literally, HOOKS on some of these vines!), tigers, slippery cliffs...
punctures, scrapes, scars on my shoulders and arms...

Basically, I've reached a point where (between you and me, please! This could affect my reputation as a seller of high grade oud) I even appreciate and venerate 'low grade' agarwood. I treasure even the skinniest, palest little sliver of agarwood, so long as its wild. If you saw me heating agarwood, you'd think I was heating the very last sliver on earth.
Then of course, there's the way I heat wood. I follow certain temperature curves whereby the wood is heated to release fumes instead of combusting the aromatic compounds, and so my perception of the scent is rather different from how folks would typically perceive the aroma (the very same wood). So what *I* smell is what you and others smell in Gen3 oils. And what folks typically smell when heating agarwood is what is captured in Gen4 oils. I've done quite a few Gen3 and Gen4 sister distillations by now (Shano Shokat and Chamkeila, Lao CX vs MW Lao, there's some Meraukes, there's more Indians, there's Malay, and the list goes on)...
and I'm sure you'll agree, the aroma of the two Gen's is quite different! : )

Perhaps, after seeing what I went through in the past 2 years.... losing all my money, all my wood (about 1.4 million worth btw)! I pray that chap repents and has remorse, if not then may he get his just desserts), and running a business that's officially been bankrupt since May '17.... add to that the other factors, like seeing how distillation is typically conducted, having gotten a taste of what these poor hunters go through, seeing how hard it is to bring back even a single log of agarwood... then on top of that, add the fact that people who get into the oud game usually get corrupted (I refuse to say OUD corrupts them. NO, Oud is pure, Oud is GOOD), you see envy, malice, and hatred between various players in the game. All very sad.

So I've ended up cocooning myself into my own esoteric experience of-and-with oud. Gen3 is that little corner of mine, that's where I lose myself, that's where I drown out the noise.
Gen4 is the closest (and more easily graspable) experience in relation to Gen3, and its just about the 'lowest' I'm willing to 'stoop'. ; P

You know.. after writing all this, now I'm thinking maybe I should do a blog post about it as well. Maybe it'll make it easier to see where I'm coming from, and what it is that ultimately shaped what have turned out to be the only two oud themes I can bring myself to make.
And when I say 'bring myself to'... have you noticed I haven't had a SINGLE attar in about a year?! Same reason. I can't bring myself to 'contaminate' oud with anything. There's nothing wrong with attars. But I hope after reading my little story, you can realize why I shudder at just the thought of mixing anything else with oud. : (

and now, about the hunter situation:
these guys are poor. Two of these guys I had stay at a 'decent' hotel a couple years ago, in Borneo. And believe it or not, they saw FAUCETS for the first time in their life. Couldn't believe it. Like, wow, you turn this thing, and water comes out. So you can imagine what life must be like for them!

Now hang on to that thought please. And then read the following-

Many of them have had illegal dealings in the past. Smuggling, stealing government property, things of that nature. Please don't judge them; their life is tough, and its easier for folks like us to judge who've never walked in their shoes. They do what they have to do, to survive.

So any way, my hunters 'disappeared' a couple of days ago, we were all supposed to head out for our next jungle trek today.
Well, yesterday I found out that one of them was detained at the border coming into Malaysia, because he'd been blacklisted, due to some illegal business dealings in the past. So now we have to try to fish him out. Don't know if we'll succeed. If we don't succeed, we will still have to proceed without him. If I cannot sustain and maintain a running business by the end of the year, its bad news for Agar Aura. : (
But it kills me, of course. I don't know what would happen to him. I've already paid him, and as usual I support hunters' families whenever they leave home to go hunting for me.

So its all one big mess. And I hope you can understand why this email got delayed. Heck, this is a real-life example of some of the situations we have to face on the supply side; the market side is usually oblivious to the issues we face.

Any how, this again, should hopefully demonstrate why my appreciation of oud has crossed the boundaries of rational, into the realm of obsessive and esoteric. I think it was ****** (or maybe it was someone else) who once hinted that maybe my Canadianized sensibilities don't make me a good candidate for being in this industry (I'm too much of a softy).
I suppose that's true, ha! By the way that Borneo trip I told you about (above^), we got robbed. The hunters were abused badly by one of the locals there, and when they finally got back to Kuala Lumpur, I took them out for a grand feast.
THEY apologized to ME... I was so shocked!
I grabbed his hand (the hunter who's currently detained) and kissed it. He pulled it back like I had hit it with a stun gun. I guess no one had ever treated him with any respect before. : (

I told Ahmad to translate to him that he shouldn't DARE apologize about the failed hunting expedition, it was NOT his fault. As a side note, by default failed hunts are always blamed. Their families are practically held hostage by the 'big bosses', and they're really really abused. We talk about "fair trade" coffee, oh boy......... those coffee pickers have it real good, compared to how life is for agarwood hunters. *sigh*

Any how, I went off on a lot of tangents. But I hope that by the time you reached the end of my ranting, you're able to realize why Gen3 is the way it is (I isolate the precious oleoresin from EVERYTHING, into its most pristine, quintessential form, devoid of even the wood that holds that oleoresin). Very esoteric, and yes, influenced by a a boatload of emotion and sentiments.
But hey, maybe all this will make you appreciate it even more.

And maybe you too will agree that maybe I picked the wrong industry! ; P
It sure is hard, trying to do things 'right', when I'm going against the grain so abrasively. Not quite the western set of values and business ethics I'm used to.

Finally,
It may sadden you to know... the guy who was held at gun point in Thailand and told to empty the bags, is the same guy who was abused in Borneo, the same guy who's hand I kissed... and...
the same guy who is currently detained. : (
So you can imagine how that makes me feel.


Regards,
Taha

So that was the email. There are certain things in there I would otherwise be too embarrassed to ever share publicly, and other things which are awkward / not 'smart business' for me to say. But I decided to share it all any way, word for word.

I hope these behind-the-scenes look at the supply side help all you Oud consumers to appreciate it even more, and not the other way around. Yes, there's a lot of dirtiness in the industry, but its not Oud's fault. Oud is GOOD, and PURE. And just consider the fact that even though most oud supply chains are 'tained', the oils still stir our souls. That is the beauty, the power, of what I personally consider the most precious gift to us humans on earth.

I'll part with a collection of photos and videos from projects that were losses. Sarit's suffered a lot, he's lost a lot. Let's hope he manages to join us on our next jungle trek, and he gets his share of a super awesome Super-King harvest.

 

[Adam]

Wow bro…
The believers know that if things just get worse and worse… it means nothing but…
The ease, relieve and victory is just behind the corner…
We ask God for patience and the best out come for our life in this world as well as in hearafter...

 

[kesiro]

Wow Taha, your post is gut wrenching in its sadness and frustration. I read it but also feel it. I pray you great success. No matter what, you can hold your head high for your principles, values, and goodwill.

 

[Taherg]

We ask Allah to replace all your losses with what is better in this life and the next.
You are greatly admired and respected for your passion, commitment and vision for the world of Oud. I pray that AgarAura survives and flourishes and supplies Tahas vision for Oud Oil for many generations to come...

Its a shame that those so dedicated to Oud and have made it such a personal mission to deliver the best to those that love it should struggle with business. There is clearly something wrong here. I need to shake things up in Dubai, people are sleeping..I still cant believe that a majority of artisanal sales are outside of the middle east and the ME are known for their love of Oud.

 

[Joyoud]

Dear brother Taha,
Al salamu alaykum wa rahmatu Allah,
You really broke my heart and all what can I say : you are a strong man and you have a great soul and heart (not because of your e-mail above, no ..but because every body now you like that from day one) , I pray for Allah to open his doors of (Riziq) widely inshaa Allah and make your way easy and clear and before all that protect you
from any harm (you and these gentleman ) , Allahuma Ameen .
And Taha please don't worry , you can came back here (Canada) anytime you want and we will buy our oils from Ensar and Adam (I will make you place the order for you and I , this way I will get a good discount ) ...

Sorry.... I know maybe its not a good time for kidding but I am trying to less tragic.

Take care brother and ( Fee Amanu Allah wa hifthahu )

- - - Updated - - -

Dear brother Taha,
Al salamu alaykum wa rahmatu Allah,
You really broke my heart and all what can I say : you are a strong man and you have a great soul and heart (not because of your e-mail above, no ..but because every body now you like that from day one) , I pray for Allah to open his doors of (Riziq) widely inshaa Allah and make your way easy and clear and before all that protect you
from any harm (you and these gentleman ) , Allahuma Ameen .
And Taha please don't worry , you can came back here (Canada) anytime you want and we will buy our oils from Ensar and Adam (I will make you place the order for you and I , this way I will get a good discount ) ...

Sorry.... I know maybe its not a good time for kidding but I am trying to be less tragic.

Take care brother and ( Fee Amanu Allah wa hifthahu )

 

[Taha]

Oh, ha! Thanks for all the kind words and sentiments folks.

I re-read my post and, man..... it just sounds like a sob story. My intent was not really that, it was more to reveal the general atmosphere behind the scenes (and then how it has shaped some of my distillation decisions). I can assure you I'm not the only one who's been pricked by the thorns lining this path.
I know that anyone else who works behind the scenes, no matter how fancy or 'pretty' the end-product / writeup is, has such anecdotes to share. In fact, the more flawless the oil, the more chaotic and stressful the procurement process typically would have been.

JoyOud - wa alaykum assalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Ha! Yes, there's always time for light-hearted jokes. Especially when things are a bit hectic (as they are now).

 

[Shabby]

Reading posts like that really make me grateful to the vendors. I remember a post from Ensar about the financial difficulties of the business as well, and I remember also a post by Taha on Basenotes about Adam's difficult situation.

All I can say is may God bless you all for your efforts. When I get these oils as a customer, I feel like I am the beneficiary of a Divine gift, and to be quite honest thoughts of its monetary value are very far away from my mind.

I don't for a second believe that people who try so hard to provide this supreme substance in a pure and pristine form do it for its financial aspect. In fact that would be antithetical. Even I get demoralised reading the constant attacks on pricing and asking for discounts, and I am just a customer!

So this is just to say that you are all in my prayers and that I am sincerely grateful for what you do, not at a material level, but at the spiritual level. Bakarallahu fikum.

 

[Ensar Oud]

I see the spoonfeeding program has already begun over at the other place, and the price of oils is getting 'voted' on....

Some random thoughts....

In a true 'democracy' and an open market, there is a place for everyone. You can't storm into the Rolls showroom and start a protest. Or demand that the entire populace ride on Chinese bicycles.

Any sort of 'central control' on the pricing of goods is anti-democratic by definition, and is indeed haram in Islam.

To badmouth vendors of luxury goods constitutes a separate wrong.

People are free to manufacture whatever quality goods they like, and if the market supports their aesthetic, it will make room for them. If it doesn't, they'll be forced to manufacture something different – by the market.

This brings me to another point. I saw the post by our good friend @J65 regarding the expense of high grade oils and consumerism, and thought the following information might shed some light on why we even bother to make and sell such oils....

In Islam, the application of scent is tantamount to giving charity. The higher the quality of the fragrance, the 'greater' the amount given.

If you think it is extravagant to spend $2,000 on a few grams of fragrance, would you say it is equally extravagant to donate $2,000 in charity?

From the point of view of Islam, it certainly isn't. And this is why it is no coincidence that the people who produce and sell such fragrances happen to be Muslims.

In the Sacred Law, there is a legal ruling that "It is not to be deemed wasteful or extravagant for any one individual to spend up to a third of their income on fragrance".

Let that sink in for a moment. You could be making $6,000 a month, and you can spend $2,000 each month on a bottle of premium oud, without the slightest trace of blame.

For us, 'cheaper' is something that can be talked about in relation to everything – except perfume. When it comes to perfume, the prophetic example is to seek out the very best money can buy, and spend on it without trepidation.

Islam teaches that one gets back tenfold what they spend in charity, or in any act of displaying God's blessings upon one. And there is no better way to display God's blessings upon one than by donning the finest scent, which was the most beloved thing in all of creation to the chosen Messenger of God (peace and blessings be upon him).

--

I shared all of this in order to give you some background info on what drives the production of such costly oils, as well as the mindset of the people producing them, so as to avoid confusion or wrong assumption.

I apologize to all for bringing religion into the discussion. We welcome all of our good friends, from all religions and backgrounds, in the discussion and use of our precious elixir, and any references to religion are for the purpose of edification alone.

May God guide us all, and bless you and your families.

 

[kesiro]

Alrighty y'all! Here it is, kesiro's guide to economics. If you want to produce something of EQUAL quality for less money, this is how you do it:

1. 'Slave labor' - You need people along the chain of production but that costs money. Minimize this expense and you have a start.
2. Mass production- Small, limited production usually means high price and scarcity. e.g. Hermes Birkin bag, $15-30K+ and rarely ever in stock. So you need to go BIG.
3. Forget profits, give it away.
4. Brainwash people into thinking your product is as good as the top competitors.

Everything else is a mental exercise, IMO.

 

[Taha]

Hmmm, I dunno, unless I missed something I thought it was just a harmless poll to get different opinions voiced on the topic.
I do totally agree with what you stated above, but have some more to say about this issue (and one of these things might be seen as bordering sacrilege).

Pricing is a tricky thing. In the past 2½ years my business has primarily been wholesale, I ended up adopting the industry standard across the board (LIFO, FIFO, inventory valuation, audit, blech... its a pity that even artisanal endeavours are, at the end of the day, still businesses and hence have to have prepare financial statements, get audited, etc).
Now in my case, only about 2 out of every 10 or so harvest/procurement end up being outstanding batches, so inventory valuation (thus pricing) is a bit tough for me. I know that unlike the bulk of my business, Ensar and Adam only seek out outstanding batches, so the dynamics are quite different. In my case, adopting a fixed % saves me a whole lotta headache (having to edit filed documents, updating valuations, etc).

But its a real tragedy.
Because what I do, actually goes against what I personally believe. What I actually believe is that oud is priceless (and if you asked me right after a failed hunting trip, I've often been on record grumbling that only hunters deserve to enjoy this precious substance). Now that would mean there would be no oud for anyone... we can't have that now can we?

I may not practice what I preach myself, but what I personally believe is that artisanal oud oils don't have to comply to some darn 'industry standard' — especially when the industry mostly comprises of adulterated (on top of being low grade) oud!

For standard grade oud, its very simple. Distillers are mass-producing a commodity for the purpose of making a profit, and Adam Smith's invisible hand has set the prices.
For artisanal oud, especially high grade artisanal oud, its complicated. WHO sets the price? WHO decides what is too little or too much? Can we argue, for example, that Van Gogh's Starry Night is just pigment, linseed oil, and varnish on canvas, and hence should be priced as the sum of these items (i.e. about $5?)

Its when we start comparing artisanal oud to standard grade oud, and decree that they are one and the same, that the problem arises.
Its when a printout of Starry Night is considered to be 'as good as' the real thing.
Put another way: its when left-brained folks don't see eye-to-eye with right-brained folks.

Now here's the sacrilegious bit—
Since around Nov'15, I now even treasure "low grade" oud (so long as its not adulterated, and is wild). I think once the market is dry of all the best alleged wild ouds (which are actually decent-to-tolerable plantation brews) and they're replaced with the new breed of plantation oils, everyone is going to hold this same sacrilegious view.
After Ensar had posted his blog article "The End of Organic Oud", I was chatting with Adam one day while he was still in Thailand, and asked him how the plantation scene over there was, since he had left a year ago. And he confirmed everything Ensar said (and he actually had some more disturbing things to add).
So the Chinese folks, seeing how scarce wild agar is, have been going around collecting good plantation trees. Interesting side point: there's actually now an "anti Chinese" movement among some farmers (e.g. there's one I know in Koh Kong), folks who have been doing things the organic way, and they refuse to sell to the Chinese, because its destroying the market.
After having confirmed with numerous people, its pretty clear that 99% of good plantation agar has been wiped out.
You should see what this new breed of plantation oud is like. Pitch black sinking-grade nuggets of agarwood, extracted from 4-7 year old trees, with oleoresin formations less than a year old. When the wood is burned, you better have a gas mask close.
Makes me think of a 1-week old chick pumped with enough hormones to make it look like a full grown hen.
Yep. This new breed will be the new generation of 'wild oud' (and its nothing like the [much better] plantation oils being sold as wild in the market right now). When this new breed hits the market, that's when a whole lotta folks will freak out, and start reconsidering what they thought they knew.

..and maybe Starry Night will be seen in a new light.

 

[Taha]

One last thing I forgot to add, and this has to do with Ensar's prices in particular.
I have been noticing that with his releases in the past 8 months or so (that's when I actually started paying attention), his prices for oils distilled many years ago are actually spot on, and very much in line with current market prices of wild agarwood. And in some cases, even below market price (case in point: his last few Merauke oils).
Take it from someone who has been wrestling with Filaria distillations for a good 6 months (just in 2016), I can tell you that it would cost waaaaaaaaaay more if you cooked comparable wood today. Don't believe me? I myself cooked a batch of Sultan's Succor wood at home. You know what the cost price was, despite triple the typical yield? Around $1,500 per bottle. Cost price. Not selling price. And that was with all my yield-boosting techniques.

So Ensar, stick out your hand, you deserve some caning for under-charging.

And now here's a fun little challenge: if anyone has any qualms with Ensar's prices, I invite you to come visit me in Kuala Lumpur. I will allow you to use any of my 3 copper and 2 steel setups at the distillation facility free of charge, accommodation and food is on me (I happen to own a restaurant in Pahang too, btw), all you have to do is track down the cheapest genuine wild wood that you can find. And cook it. If you are able to make it cost less than what Ensar charges and smell half as good, I will reimburse you fully for the wood and plane ticket as well.
Heck, I'll even offer to buy the batch from you, with the industry standard 40% profit on top for you.

@Mods/Admins, I hope this doesn't violate forum rules (sorry, I'm always lazy and confess that to date I have never read any of the rules and regulations of forums I've joined). If it does, please let me know how I can modify the wording, but I would like this offer to stay up for all to see. This way, there'll be no way for me to deny it later on.

I still don't think Ensar was being attacked, but if that was indeed the case, then I think taking up my challenge would be the only way to settle this.

Shame on you Ensar, for under-charging. And here, I'm going to take the opportunity to expose something Adam shared with me once (sorry Adam, I hope you don't mind). He actually complained to me about Ensar's low prices for his wild oils, because of how difficult it is to match or even come close to his prices.
The only reason I've been able to keep up with his outrageous prices is because I 'piggy-back' the aforementioned 2-out-of-10 batches. Our wholesale deals keep our larger wheels spinning, and that gives me enough wiggle room to squeeze in smaller high grade artisanal batches. And THEN I'm able to match Ensar's prices (and sometimes they're lower, sometimes higher).

So....!
Who's up for the challenge?

PS: Shano Shokat was a loss distillation. Yes, it was sold at a loss, covering only material costs and NOT labour, water, heating and other expenses. Chamkeila (the sister distillation) had a waaaay higher yield, and I decided to make up for the loss through selling Chamkeila. Shano Shokat btw was crafted for one of our wholesale client in Dubai (and I kept only a part of the batch for online sales), Chamkeila was not. It just hit me that this is a perfect example of the 'piggy back' scenario I outlined above (except for the loss bit; that's not usually the case — but this batch was a request I had to meet, for securing a 100-tola subsequent distillation project for the same client), and an example of how I have to struggle to keep prices "low".

 

[Kruger]

Taha, you kinda beat me to it with your latest post, but I thought I’d post what I had written in reaction to your previous one and some other posts about oud being overpriced.

—

The idea that oud should be accessible to all, with reasonable prices to boot, sounds all nice and romantic. But the reality is that it’s not accessible to all. We can’t even access Oud Yusuf again, and that was intended to be offered as a staple ‘bargain buy’. We’re on what is likely our last batch of Aroha Kyaku. And I’m not even talking about the wild stuff. When Ensar realized how little Oud Sultani is left he frantically (literally) discontinued it.

I’ve met Adam and I’ve met Ali. They don’t live in 10 bedroom mansions. As far as I know, Taha doesn’t have some rich Saudi prince funding all his futile (I don’t want to say ‘failed’) expeditions. Earlier this year, Ensar decided against buying an IKEA frying pan just to save the money (we had, and continue to have, exorbitant monthly expenses just to cover running projects). I personally didn’t even have enough money to have a simple wedding celebration. I have no delusions about ever owning a car. All the money our company makes just goes back into making up for lost time… wood that we wish we had bought a few years ago that we’re now paying tenfold for.

So, is oud overpriced, or waaay overpriced? After living without a toilet for over three months at the pots running the initial Sultan Series distillations, seeing no more of the wood of that kind at the prices we got them for, eating canned sardines and rice to cut costs, I’ll be the first to unashamedly say that many of those $790+ ouds were underpriced. I once called Ali (Feel Oud) while I was in Bangkok and he had just come out of a lily pond for a new hybrid they did, telling me about the snakes and how dangerous it was. Lets see Roja Dove do that.

Besides, I don’t understand why people who want $80 ouds talk as if they don’t exist. You can find pure oud for that price all over the place. They pump out gallons of it every month. (Didn’t Taha and Adam both post long lists of people to get decent stuff like that from somewhere?).

Agarwood is not Microsoft stock. It doesn’t go down one day and up the next. Wild trees don’t plant themselves and pop up overnight. If you think quality artisanal oud prices will magically curb down and one day settle at a ‘reasonable’ equilibrium, or that a new vendor will descend on white clouds to save the day by offering ‘the same premium oud… only much cheaper’ then I can only re-iterate what Taha as repeated ad nauseam: We are talking about different kinds of oud.

If you’re anticipating fantastic oud with a huge price difference to what’s currently being offered, here’s Kruger’s guide to economics:

1. Fly to Cambodia.

2. Buy a batch of quality wild incense-grade wood at $2,000 per kilo (even though some batches go for many times that… IF you can find them).

3. Forget all the costs of transport & logistics.

4. Distill that wood and get 6 grams of oil per kilo (lets take an average estimate - I’m not privy to the yield enhancing techniques yet).

5. Forget distillation costs and labor.

6. Calculate your cost per gram, excluding everything but the price of the wood, and you get $333. So, $999 for a 3 gr bottle.

7. Forget all company expenses and running costs. Also disregard salaries, time, know-how. Actually, let’s forget any profit while we’re at it. Forget sending your kids to school, paying rent, or settling the bill for that root canal.

If you’re selling that bottle for less than $999, you’re 1.) making a super risky marketing move, or 2.) you simply didn’t use the same kind of raw materials. If you’re selling it for $1,500 you’re barely breaking even, after all expenses added, and nowhere near sending your daughter to school. So, tell me again… is it just overpriced or way overpriced?

Looking at it from another angle, the raw materials for making Tigerwood 1995 today sell for $2,000 per kilo, i.e. $999++ per bottle, just for the wood. But we didn’t make it today, and we didn’t pay that much for it. It sold for $295.