Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

Adam

Well-Known Member
@ Taha, very tempting, but you know there is no way back. Australia, UK, Thailand, Malaysia… lets see what is the final destination =)

@ Robert, oh dear...
that scene worth of oscar...
just as the one when Terminator 2 was disolved... I was a little boy and remember crying hard watching that…

@ Muhammad, yeh man, that makes me wonder… therefore even the final stage dust from super and sinking Indo woods now super hard to get… yet the Sinai business is blooming =) every month or so I see the woods they make and it start to look more and more like Malaysian double super quality =)
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
In Indonesia we have the largest oud stock in the whole world, depletion does happened. But at certain area. Yes Super king is now extra rare but where to find it ? that is the question mark, same way.
Easy, peasy, Indoneasy. :) Facebook/WhatsApp/Viber! :)
Super King exists abundantly in the cyber world apparently. Looks like stocks are healthy and strong. Just the other day, I saw a photo of my old batches (yet again) floating around... "ready stock available!!!"
And THAT is why, even though its 2017 now and Super King is pretty much gone now, online oud enthusiasts are still not privy to the actual state of affairs.

@Muhammad Taftazani, I got to smell several of your oils today. Papua Maziid was the most enjoyable, truly a work of art. Papua remix would be a close second.
Oh and SandalOud (I think that's what its called?)... I agree 100% with you, and I totally get why you named it that. It has an extremely sandaly quality without actually smelling like sandalwood. I think the wood probably had some naturally santatol content.

I think these are the first oils of yours that I've smelled after you finalized your new distillation techniques since our discussion in Sabah. Thoroughly delighted, and it was extremely enjoyable 'seeing' you at work, as I inhaled their aromas. :)
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
So who can tell what's different in the following three photos? Yes, they're all agarwood shavings. But they are leagues apart.
1.jpeg
2.jpeg
3.jpeg
PS: $5/kg, ~$160/kg, $450/kg.
PPS: they are all Malaysian, so the difference in price is not due to different countries of origin.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Depends on what you need to use it for. If you really want to 'Make it Cheap Again' then the $5 would be the best, by far. ;)
Well, I was going to reply saying that KoolAid was right (as is John's observation), however I'd forgotten about MiCA.
Oh yes, for MiCA, the third one would be the worst.

@John, yep, the $5, $160, and $450 are in the same order as the photos.

Come now, no more takers? You guys are getting a lesson about something which apparently even many oud sellers don't have a clue. So let's see some more class participation. :p
(this is again one of those things which will hopefully help you appreciate genuinely high grade oils even more)
Consider Ensar's post a hint. If one wants to make 'pleasant enough' oud oils, they can take the $5/kg wood and use that (the yield will be around the same as the $160/kg wood.... that's about 32 times cheaper!!!!).
Okay, here's another hint: the wood in the first photo is from the living portion of the tree (xylem), whereas in the second and third the wood is from the dead part (the inner heartwood).
 
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Taha

Well-Known Member
Shavings from Second, third and final stage cleaning of wood? (in reference to the previous "lesson")
Nice try buddy! But nope, not quite.
Okay, yes, the second and third photos are Stage 2 and Final Stage shavings respectively.
But what does the first photo show? Why the huge price difference, and why is it not one of the aforementioned Stages?

Hint specifically for you @m.arif: yesterday, you almost had a tear escape your eye, when you were looking at my tiny pouch of Sarawak/Brunei border shavings that the hunters manage to collect.. and you asked about "the rest" and where all that went. My answer was: it was left behind in the jungle because its garbage to me.
 
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@Taha Ok, will give it a try.

Heartwood takes many years to form and typically found in grandmother trees of decades, if not centuries old. Given the current state of the supply market, it is not hard to explain the price difference in the wood.

I would imagine most of the cookie cutter Oud sellers would use the $5 wood to cook most of the oils in the market due to 1) cheaper and 2) most beginners would hardly tell the difference between high grade oils from good quality wood and mediocre oils from low grade wood [emoji57].

Having said that, I would guess that the high grade wood in picture 3 would be 'useless' to most distillers (except for artisans [emoji4]) as we know the yield would be super low. Perhaps the wood in the 2nd picture might be a better choice since it has a good balance of oil and resin?

As for why the wood in the first picture not cleaned beyond stage 2? Hehe I would reckon there will be insufficient material left for distillation! The bunk wood are there to make up the bulk of the distillation. Remove all of them and you might need at least 32 times more wood material, which work out to be the same financially! [emoji1] That might explain why Taha left most of the 'rubbish' in the jungle.
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Thank to bro Taha for sharing those pictures. In fact there is much more to it rather then just seeing the visual difference.
First of all I wanted to point out that dividing the shavings in to different grades is already a sign of professionalism. In most places that we visited people are not bothered to do so. Malinau is a good example. The curving dust is available there for around 20-30$ per kg and it contains all the grades mixed together. 5$ kg stuff is like 50% of it then 25-35% of mid grade dust and just 15% is a decent quality final stage cleaning dust. This dust is the absolute TOP quality raw material used in malinau. The oil from it cost 200-500$ per tola. Most people consider it the top quality oud oil and in fact it is the top quality oil produced there. Not many will be able to tell the difference between this oil and the one cooked only from final grade shavings.
Another vital point here is to carefully examine the dust in person to be able to make a final decision which one may yield a superior oil. Obviously we not talking about 5$ dust here due to a very high percentage of bunk wood. Darker dust may appear far more superior however once you heat it, look at it closely and chew some if needed it may turns out that it is completely useless and will yield horrible oil. It may be paint, glue or simply harsh general scent profile that makes it useless.
Another important point is the distillation technics that may make an oil from 5$ dust smell like the one from 160$ cooked with out special tricks. Or the one from 160$ to smell like from 450$ dust. Thats where 99% of users may be fooled to think that oil that cost 150$ smells exactly the same as the one for 500$ and the one for 500$ is completely identical to the one for 2000$up (cooked from super/sinking chips)... True! those oils MAY smell identical, however they NEVER will be identical. Of course for those who see no difference there is no point to spend more and buy oils that much more expensive yet provide "the same" experience. The big problem here is the fact that by doing so these users cut the chances for themselves to learn seeing the difference... Hmmm... It may sound like a very philosophical "problem" and some sort of a closed circle... and probably it is.
Hope this makes at least some sense...
 

bhanny

Well-Known Member
This is very helpful and interesting guys.

I can clearly see the heavy resin content in #3 vs the first two. I am struggling more with the difference between #1 and #2, especially given the huge price difference.
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
@Taha Ok, will give it a try.

Heartwood takes many years to form and typically found in grandmother trees of decades, if not centuries old. Given the current state of the supply market, it is not hard to explain the price difference in the wood.

I would imagine most of the cookie cutter Oud sellers would use the $5 wood to cook most of the oils in the market due to 1) cheaper and 2) most beginners would hardly tell the difference between high grade oils from good quality wood and mediocre oils from low grade wood [emoji57].

Having said that, I would guess that the high grade wood in picture 3 would be 'useless' to most distillers (except for artisans [emoji4]) as we know the yield would be super low. Perhaps the wood in the 2nd picture might be a better choice since it has a good balance of oil and resin?

As for why the wood in the first picture not cleaned beyond stage 2? Hehe I would reckon there will be insufficient material left for distillation! The bunk wood are there to make up the bulk of the distillation. Remove all of them and you might need at least 32 times more wood material, which work out to be the same financially! [emoji1] That might explain why Taha left most of the 'rubbish' in the jungle.
Whoa, dude.. color me impressed! :eek:
I thought there would be a bunch of people guessing and each would get maybe a thing or two right. Your post pretty much summed it up!
And you're not just right in your guesses, but also about my reasoning for not bothering with the $5 grade wood. Since I now have to distill everything myself, I simply do not have the capacity (or patience or brawn.. or real estate) to process the volume of wood required to run standard-grade distillations anymore, i.e. for wholesale clients.

Adam is exactly right. Just seeing the photos is not enough.. and that's exactly why I included both pics one and two. Not only do they look very similar overall, but in fact you'll see some darker stains in the first (lower grade) photo.. and so, judging from just the images, one would wrongly conclude photo 1 shows a better batch of wood than photo 2.
And of course Adam is also right in saying that most (actually, pretty much all) suppliers don't bother to separate different grades of shavings.

The wood in photo 1 is from the tree's xylem. The brown stains here are just months/few years old. And so, like I've always insisted: oils distilled from such wood are no different or any better from good organic oud. If you ask me, you're better off getting superior plantation oud oils from Ensar or Adam, rather than waste money on overpriced wild oud oils that were cooked from xylem raw material. Fyi, that covers most wild oud oils in the market. Unless a seller goes out of the way to ensure the wood quality is excellent (personally inspecting the raw material, or training the hunters/suppliers to separate different grades), what they'll likely be selling is Xylem oud oils.

Think rose petals absolute vs rose petals+buds+twigs absolute.... the former is always going to be more expensive. All producers want to minimize costs, no wonder most rose absolutes are extracted from the latter.

So there you have it folks.
Lesson learned: do not be fooled by photos of dark wood that is presented as the raw material for an oil.

Some months ago, Ensar said oil-grade wood CAN be used to make high grade oils. I cringed when I read that - not because I disagree with it, but because it can open the door for some sneaky folks to abuse the term. I will take the liberty of speaking on Ensar's behalf: his definition of oil-grade is not the same as what is generally referred to as 'oil grade wood'/'kayu minyak' in the market.
I hope the demonstration with the photos of the shavings helped you guys understand why.

From personal experience, I can attest that mixing heartwood with some xylem agarwood (so long as its good enough) can be a good way to bring production cost down. A good nose will be able to pick it up right away, but most folks won't know the difference.
And for high grade xylem-only agarwood, the only places where I think it even exists any more are Sri Lanka and Papua. And since I know some sneaky folks can abuse that too, the emphasis is on 'high grade' xylem (e.g. decade++ oleoresin formation).
As a side note: earlier, Ensar had posted a photo of a bunk-y looking piece of Sri Lankan wood. That was a xylem chunk. Xylem wood is super water-absorbent, and soaking it for a single day can easily make it 'sinking wood' (not 'sinking grade wood'). On the other hand, heartwood is very tough, and you can't play these sinking games with it.

So there you have it folks. Another piece of the oud puzzle. Something that's not discussed much (at all), but hopefully something folks will appreciate true artisans paying attention to.. among many other things yet undiscussed. :)
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
Of course for those who see no difference there is no point to spend more and buy oils that much more expensive yet provide "the same" experience. The big problem here is the fact that by doing so these users cut the chances for themselves to learn seeing the difference... Hmmm... It may sound like a very philosophical "problem" and some sort of a closed circle... and probably it is.
Hope this makes at least some sense...
Actually, if you ask me, the bigger problem is when customers are spending a lot and they think they are getting high grade heartwood oils... but they're not. And thus, the hefty price tags of those low grade oils coupled with "nice" distillation techniques blurs the line between truly high grade and purportedly high grade oils for them. Which is the biggest tragedy of all. :(
 

m.arif

Active Member
The dark side of the oud industry exposed. Very enlightening (and somewhat depressing). But who will take heed?

A guy offered me some wild Thai oils, $100-120/tola.. He said the owner has various distilleries all over thailand. 1000+ boilers total. you can imagine their output capabilities. Kilos of wild oil, monthly. Now all the pieces fit perfectly and its clear how it's possible..Pure, yes.. but of what quality?

For such ouds, well, the end of oud is definitely very far away..
 

Taha

Well-Known Member
The dark side of the oud industry exposed. Very enlightening (and somewhat depressing). But who will take heed?

A guy offered me some wild Thai oils, $100-120/tola.. He said the owner has various distilleries all over thailand. 1000+ boilers total. you can imagine their output capabilities. Kilos of wild oil, monthly. Now all the pieces fit perfectly and its clear how it's possible..Pure, yes.. but of what quality?

For such ouds, well, the end of oud is definitely very far away..
Uh oh.... 1000 boilers, that's 20,000-30,000 kg of wild wood per month. I'm afraid its not possible to even fill those pots with enough white bunk wood, let alone low grade xylem kayu minyak.
In this case, I think its safer to assume plantation stuff or adulteration, together with a guy devoid of a spine.
I know the biggest players in Malaysia and even they can't pull off that quantity (even with racun)... and Thailand has even less wild trees than Malaysia! o_O
 

Ensar Oud

Well-Known Member
Uh oh.... 1000 boilers, that's 20,000-30,000 kg of wild wood per month. I'm afraid its not possible to even fill those pots with enough white bunk wood, let alone low grade xylem kayu minyak.
In this case, I think its safer to assume plantation stuff or adulteration, together with a guy devoid of a spine.
I know the biggest players in Malaysia and even they can't pull off that quantity (even with racun)... and Thailand has even less wild trees than Malaysia! o_O
I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.... No way he can fill those pots up with wild wood of ANY kind... It's all plantation wood that's inoculated and harvested at 5 years-old, I bet....