Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love
- Thread starter Taha
- Start date
Cheap high-grade is the way to go, no doubt. Like the Sri Lankan distilled from the sinking-grade wood I posted a couple days back 
I think some still can't tell the difference, eh.And I think you meant to say 'sinking wood' not 'sinking grade' wood. I don't blame you, you're so well acquainted with the latter that you probably mistyped, so I can overlook your transgression.
Good God, what have I done. *sigh* this might be the second batch in a row that I broke my back cooking (yes, a loaded 15kg capacity pot is close to 300kg, and @m.arif can tell you how obsessive I am about carrying the pot to the wash area and cleaning thoroughly)... and now I don't know if I can even bring myself to sell this oil, just like the Koh Kong before it.
I just pulled the first fraction (out of 4), and got to sniff it for the first time..
Dear God...
PS: very different from Ensar's, your, and my Nha Trangs.
To spare as many top notes as he can? The oil oxidizes unnecessarily the longer it remains exposed and heated (which is what happens in the collection vessel).
But yes @Adam, this is precisely why. For the first pull, I find this to be most essential. As for the remaining pulls, I loosely follow an equation I formulated (correlating Xkg in the pot and Yml collected in the collector) which, to my nose, mimics the aroma of gently heated wood. What to do with the hydrosol before/during/after each of these stages of course plays a role too (that's where infusion does play a role). I'm sure you know what I'm referring to @Ensar, but let's keep it fun and mysterious for everyone else.
Having said all that, I run the temp so low and tinker with the internal pressure, that much/most(?) of the oil goes into the collector without even reaching the condenser.
The collector is so cool to the touch, you could literally hold it in your hand as you sleep and it wouldn't hurt you (averaging 27°C per infrared thermal gun), and so the oil in the collector doesn't get hot.
And speaking of sleeping... I was going to make a little video of holding not just the collector in my hand during distillation, but even wrapping my hand around the neck... but my wife's shift womanning the pot just started a few minutes ago, so I can finally go and get some rest. Maybe I'll make that video tomorrow.
I often prefer to collect all at once...
to me the hydrosol and the fractions that comes out latter running trought each other is vital... just as one would co-distill or infuse as opposed to just mix the oils... the difference is dramatic...
Moreover I rarely cook for month so not worry about long exposure to oxygen...
As for Taha's case I see it make sense.
to me the hydrosol and the fractions that comes out latter running trought each other is vital... just as one would co-distill or infuse as opposed to just mix the oils... the difference is dramatic...
Moreover I rarely cook for month so not worry about long exposure to oxygen...
As for Taha's case I see it make sense.
Does anyone know how well the Japanese incenses are holding up these days? Are the premium Shoyeido and Baieido and Shunkhodo etc incenses still as good as they used to be, or has quality on these gone down as the quality of agarwood goes down? I have only bought one batch of these incenses, most about 2 years ago, so I don't know what the current batches are like..
I do know that I paid $250/10g of Baieido's premium "Hakusui" agarwood chips last year and they were poor quality for the price - chunks of bunk wood in them, not well resinated, mediocre scent profile - I would estimate the true value of those chips at about $40/10g rather than $250/10g.. Certainly not the dark nuggets of resin I had seen pictures of..
I do know that I paid $250/10g of Baieido's premium "Hakusui" agarwood chips last year and they were poor quality for the price - chunks of bunk wood in them, not well resinated, mediocre scent profile - I would estimate the true value of those chips at about $40/10g rather than $250/10g.. Certainly not the dark nuggets of resin I had seen pictures of..
If I had the time and resources I would love to distill some Oud
There's the Oud journey, where one learns about Oud appreciation, then there's the Distiller's Journey, where one crafts Insane Oils
So with Taha, Ensar, Adam, and the other Oud Artisans, they are the "Ultimate Ouddies". (There should be a Medal for that)
There's the Oud journey, where one learns about Oud appreciation, then there's the Distiller's Journey, where one crafts Insane Oils
So with Taha, Ensar, Adam, and the other Oud Artisans, they are the "Ultimate Ouddies". (There should be a Medal for that
)
@Taha, @Ensar, @Adam,
Is the sum bigger than its individual parts?
As what Adam said, co-distillation is very different from just blending of the fractions together. I would imagine the heat and chemical reaction in the collector can synergies the various notes creating new and unique aroma. Of course it can be double edged sword and goes the other way.
I guess it is a compromise depending on the distiller's style and artistic vision.
Is the sum bigger than its individual parts?
As what Adam said, co-distillation is very different from just blending of the fractions together. I would imagine the heat and chemical reaction in the collector can synergies the various notes creating new and unique aroma. Of course it can be double edged sword and goes the other way.
I guess it is a compromise depending on the distiller's style and artistic vision.
Not quite...
The pool/condenser are a constant 23°C remember.
Yep, and if anything that's worse in some ways. At least with higher heat the oil gets somewhat 'cured' from the hot water in the collector. Whereas with a cool brew, the super delicate/vulnerable oil is simply sitting in an exposed state (absorbing less-than-desirable elements from the hydrosol and of course getting exposed to air).
And let's not forget all the other drawbacks of low-temp distillation, e.g. refluxed biosteam that never makes it past the bend at the neck and just drops back into the pot, oil stuck in the mash inside the pot which never gets lifted out of the pot and thus breaks down into aroma precursors instead of the actual aroma compounds, not to mention the issue of the breakdown of water+oil soluble compounds in the hydrosol due to prolonged exposure to heat inside the pot which will affect (harm) the oil's aroma, and so on.
@Adam, recall the 'cruise' between first and second crack when we were roasting coffee, and what I do before/during/after the cruise phase.
Of course, there are a bunch of workarounds for every single 'drawback' to low-temp distillation, and @Ensar when I smell your low-temp oils I can tell you've already dealt with all of those issues.
Perhaps some may have thought I was being a silly fanboy when I went overly crazy over Sultan Series oils. Now even though my personal favorite genre is more along the likes of Nha Trang LTD, it is in the Sultan Series that I can really observe each and every factor in the super-long distillation process having been carefully controlled and perfected consciously, and not by chance. There are a ton of other things which I have yet to see being discussed online. As the saying goes "the inhabitants of Mecca knows best her alleys". Maybe distillers will just always have an added level of appreciation of fine oud..
I've always said, knowledge nurtures deeper appreciation of oud. And I've always said, it's more than a simple equation of cooking temperature, copper, and soak/no-soak.
I hope this recent zoom-in into one of the many overlooked issues pertaining to distillation (and there are many more) will deepen your appreciation of artisanal oud. Emphasis on artisanal. Nothing is left to chance.
Yep, exactly! Its a double-edged sword, and this is one of the many things which builds a distiller's signature into the oil's aroma.
Infusion+breakdown is not a bad thing in and of itself, just like collecting each of the dominant fractions in an isolated manner isn't bad in and of itself.
It depends on what the distiller is trying to achieve.. that is, if the distiller even thought of this issue — among other issues.
Last month, if you tried to pin me to a spot on the map at any given time, you'd have to use all your fingers + thumb. I've been busy collecting raw materials, and during the travelling I also decided to visit a bunch of other distillers. I can promise you, there ain't nothing artisanal about how most distillers cook oils. Even when they're doing a custom distillation for someone, turns out the instructions are as basic as "soak for X days", "use copper/steel", "run the distillation at temperature X°".
As for the raw materials they use... don't even get me started. Not much even a 5-star Michelin chef can do if you just toss him a yam and salt shaker.
Forget about 'techniques'.
If the raw material wasn't impressive, the oud oil (at best) can be made to smell 'nice'. And that's about it.
Dude, it breaks my heart. I stopped buying from them because of how terrible the new batches are (and they all carry the same name as their awesome predecessors).
Its no surprise the Japanese don't want to sell Kyara to outsiders any more, even to the Chinese with the biggest wigs and fattest wads of ¥'s. They feel they don't have enough of the good stuff to pass down to their own future generations. And that also reflects in some of their recent incense reformulations / wood batches.
The whole time I've been doing the wholesale agarwood gig, I've had a grand total of just one Japanese client. You can imagine how many questions I had for him when he visited. I can tell you, it ain't looking pretty there.
The pool/condenser are a constant 23°C remember.
Yep, and if anything that's worse in some ways. At least with higher heat the oil gets somewhat 'cured' from the hot water in the collector. Whereas with a cool brew, the super delicate/vulnerable oil is simply sitting in an exposed state (absorbing less-than-desirable elements from the hydrosol and of course getting exposed to air).
And let's not forget all the other drawbacks of low-temp distillation, e.g. refluxed biosteam that never makes it past the bend at the neck and just drops back into the pot, oil stuck in the mash inside the pot which never gets lifted out of the pot and thus breaks down into aroma precursors instead of the actual aroma compounds, not to mention the issue of the breakdown of water+oil soluble compounds in the hydrosol due to prolonged exposure to heat inside the pot which will affect (harm) the oil's aroma, and so on.
@Adam, recall the 'cruise' between first and second crack when we were roasting coffee, and what I do before/during/after the cruise phase.
Of course, there are a bunch of workarounds for every single 'drawback' to low-temp distillation, and @Ensar when I smell your low-temp oils I can tell you've already dealt with all of those issues.
Perhaps some may have thought I was being a silly fanboy when I went overly crazy over Sultan Series oils. Now even though my personal favorite genre is more along the likes of Nha Trang LTD, it is in the Sultan Series that I can really observe each and every factor in the super-long distillation process having been carefully controlled and perfected consciously, and not by chance. There are a ton of other things which I have yet to see being discussed online. As the saying goes "the inhabitants of Mecca knows best her alleys". Maybe distillers will just always have an added level of appreciation of fine oud..
I've always said, knowledge nurtures deeper appreciation of oud. And I've always said, it's more than a simple equation of cooking temperature, copper, and soak/no-soak.
I hope this recent zoom-in into one of the many overlooked issues pertaining to distillation (and there are many more) will deepen your appreciation of artisanal oud. Emphasis on artisanal. Nothing is left to chance.
Yep, exactly! Its a double-edged sword, and this is one of the many things which builds a distiller's signature into the oil's aroma.
Infusion+breakdown is not a bad thing in and of itself, just like collecting each of the dominant fractions in an isolated manner isn't bad in and of itself.
It depends on what the distiller is trying to achieve.. that is, if the distiller even thought of this issue — among other issues.
Last month, if you tried to pin me to a spot on the map at any given time, you'd have to use all your fingers + thumb.
I've been busy collecting raw materials, and during the travelling I also decided to visit a bunch of other distillers. I can promise you, there ain't nothing artisanal about how most distillers cook oils. Even when they're doing a custom distillation for someone, turns out the instructions are as basic as "soak for X days", "use copper/steel", "run the distillation at temperature X°".As for the raw materials they use... don't even get me started. Not much even a 5-star Michelin chef can do if you just toss him a yam and salt shaker.
Forget about 'techniques'.
If the raw material wasn't impressive, the oud oil (at best) can be made to smell 'nice'. And that's about it.
Dude, it breaks my heart. I stopped buying from them because of how terrible the new batches are (and they all carry the same name as their awesome predecessors).
Its no surprise the Japanese don't want to sell Kyara to outsiders any more, even to the Chinese with the biggest wigs and fattest wads of ¥'s. They feel they don't have enough of the good stuff to pass down to their own future generations. And that also reflects in some of their recent incense reformulations / wood batches.
The whole time I've been doing the wholesale agarwood gig, I've had a grand total of just one Japanese client. You can imagine how many questions I had for him when he visited. I can tell you, it ain't looking pretty there.
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To spare as many top notes as he can? The oil oxidizes unnecessarily the longer it remains exposed and heated (which is what happens in the collection vessel).
Also, @Taha
I sincerely hope you are wrong about being able to distil Oud from poor unkle Adam!
If your theory is that a tiny fraction of swiped Oud persists in the body somehow...
Just imagine when all the wild trees are gone.
There will be crack Chinese army battallions hunting you down to render into something akin to Ceylon No°0.
I can sadly picture the scene now. You being flung into the last wild distillation still, hydrosol at swimming pool temps, Adam being held at gunpoint forced to install a pyrex discombobulation grommeted self-sealing stembolt into the condensing mechanism.
A borsht coloured tear trickles down his cheek as he waves you goodbye, knowing he will be next.
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