The Maggot Thread
- Thread starter Taha
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Let me preface this by saying, Taha and I agreed a long time ago that we don't need to agree on everything. That's right. In fact, we disagree on a whole LOT of things. And here is where I must voice my skepticism toward some of the objections to 'barn' that make up his particular philosophy of 'cleanliness.'
Now, from what I understand, this forum is open to ALL vendors to advertise and posit their Weltanschauungs. As a natural consequence of that, some dialogue is going to be unavoidable. Some claims are going to be questioned, examined, discussed, and then questioned some more. Others are accepted as fact without any questioning. Let me further preface my comments here: I write all of what ensues as a USER of oud, NOT as producer or vendor. The one talking here is Ensar the kraut-craving, Kombucha-downing, probiotic & prebiotic-ODing nut. NOT the producer of the Oriscent line (more distinctions between what constitutes 'Oriscent' and how EO distillations are different to follow in a separate thread).
Interesting fact: While prolonged soaking is an integral component of Taha's Gen3 line, it is the total absence of soaking that defines my most prized oils. So, I'm not saying any of this as a proponent of 'the soak'.
Interesting fact: My Chinese distillers have a 'code name' for all fermentation / soak / barnyard notes. In our circle, they're referred to as the 'shit smell' oils. My teachers are SO averse to any kind of soaking whatsover—even minutes of soaking the wood before distillation—that anything even minimally soaked is termed 'shit smell'. Again, read what follows as mere thoughts from a fellow onlooker to the discussion—not the words of someone with a vested interest in marketing 'the soak' as an integral part their distillation philosophy.
I'll let you all know as soon as I write the rest of this post.
Now, from what I understand, this forum is open to ALL vendors to advertise and posit their Weltanschauungs. As a natural consequence of that, some dialogue is going to be unavoidable. Some claims are going to be questioned, examined, discussed, and then questioned some more. Others are accepted as fact without any questioning. Let me further preface my comments here: I write all of what ensues as a USER of oud, NOT as producer or vendor. The one talking here is Ensar the kraut-craving, Kombucha-downing, probiotic & prebiotic-ODing nut. NOT the producer of the Oriscent line (more distinctions between what constitutes 'Oriscent' and how EO distillations are different to follow in a separate thread).
Interesting fact: While prolonged soaking is an integral component of Taha's Gen3 line, it is the total absence of soaking that defines my most prized oils. So, I'm not saying any of this as a proponent of 'the soak'.
Interesting fact: My Chinese distillers have a 'code name' for all fermentation / soak / barnyard notes. In our circle, they're referred to as the 'shit smell' oils. My teachers are SO averse to any kind of soaking whatsover—even minutes of soaking the wood before distillation—that anything even minimally soaked is termed 'shit smell'. Again, read what follows as mere thoughts from a fellow onlooker to the discussion—not the words of someone with a vested interest in marketing 'the soak' as an integral part their distillation philosophy.
I'll let you all know as soon as I write the rest of this post.
Oh yeah totally. In fact, like I’ve said before, frankly I don’t understand why anyone even soaks wood prior to distillation, other than for the reason I do, or for an intentional fermentation (art), or for economical reasons (sometimes fermentation but usually rot).
I know that you do unsoaked for the most part and as the general rule, and some ‘art’ / fermentation soaked distillations in some rare cases here and there, so I hope you didn’t see my post as even a slight hint of a jab at you.
It’s the mass-market pipeline that’s pumping out junk that neither political correctness nor actual enjoyment (God forbid) would prevent me from censuring.
Side note to everyone: in the oud world we often run into the same people, and if there’s one thing you learn when you talk to folks who’ve distilled EO oils in the past, it’s that his OCD does drive them mad haha.
I have no doubt he would never approve of a maggot-oud distillation and put the EO stamp on it.
But as for fermentation, then yes that is an area we agree to disagree. And as far as I know, all other vendors too. I’ve done it in the past, but where I stand right now, I just don’t think straight agarwood needs to be tinkered tweaked or tampered with in any way.
Like I said, that’s a Taha thing, and I don’t enforce this on any one.
I know that you do unsoaked for the most part and as the general rule, and some ‘art’ / fermentation soaked distillations in some rare cases here and there, so I hope you didn’t see my post as even a slight hint of a jab at you.
It’s the mass-market pipeline that’s pumping out junk that neither political correctness nor actual enjoyment (God forbid) would prevent me from censuring.
Side note to everyone: in the oud world we often run into the same people, and if there’s one thing you learn when you talk to folks who’ve distilled EO oils in the past, it’s that his OCD does drive them mad haha.
I have no doubt he would never approve of a maggot-oud distillation and put the EO stamp on it.
But as for fermentation, then yes that is an area we agree to disagree. And as far as I know, all other vendors too. I’ve done it in the past, but where I stand right now, I just don’t think straight agarwood needs to be tinkered tweaked or tampered with in any way.
Like I said, that’s a Taha thing, and I don’t enforce this on any one.
I just find the 'hygiene' talk very interesting for other reasons not related to agarwood or distillation. You see, the irony is that it's not Taha who prefers 'clean', 'pristine' oils that are parasite and bacteria-free. It's the roughly 5-lb mass of bacteria, parasites, worms, protozoa, fungi, molds and viruses that make up the 'other' Taha—including major parts of his immune, nervous, and hormonal systems—the little critters who scream for fructose and everything else he likes to eat and inhale and drink—that devised such a (shall we say, ill-advised?) preference.
If any of you has had the ill luck to see his newborn excavated from his momma's tummy via C-section, you might have been shocked to see the doctor proceed to dig out a few handfuls of bloody vaginal slime, and without further ado, slather it all over little Billy's face. You see, without momma's 'miracle brew' of bacteria and parasites, little Billy would have a hell of a time fending off potentially deadly viruses and infections. In fact, it would take his clean and pristinely-delivered holobiome a full six months before it could catch up with the immunity imparted to a natural delivery baby.
What we previously thought of as 'clean & hygienic' is now recognized as a cause of dementia, Alzheimer's and autoimmune disease. And what we dreaded as unhygienic and gross now accounts for the lowest levels of Alzheimer's worldwide. Look at the stats: The highest rates of Alzheimer's are consistently found along the highest levels of 'hygiene', in the most developed countries. Lowest rates correspond to the least developed countries with the lowest levels of hygiene. The 'hygiene' story has been debunked for some time now.
Agarwood is itself rot. The human equivalent would be decomposing flesh, or wound scars that have healed and fallen off. Or the 'resinous' yellow pus that emerges from a pimple if you squeeze it. Larvae, maggots and bacteria are much higher life forms than decayed wood that's the food of fungi, or worms' leftovers.
Now, so far as 'capturing the aroma of the wood' goes, nothing could be easier. After all, when you distill any aromatic the easiest thing to do is end up with an oil that smells like the plant matter it came from. I don't see a need to devise labyrinthine set-ups with ingenious 'techniques' just to get an oil that smells like the wood you're cooking. Common sense, right? The problem is getting the oil you're cooking to smell higher-grade than the wood you're squeezing it from.—Here's where the techniques, tricks, and 'modifications' do come in very handy.
In my own practice, it is very simple: the wood must be of SUCH a high caliber that it doesn't require any tweaking—must not be soaked AT ALL, or the oil doesn't qualify as 'high-grade.'
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Not only that but the reporting of illnesses and medical statistics from underdeveloped countries is suspect, and that is putting it as mildly as I can. And the absolute golden rule of correlation does not mean causation cannot be overstated.
No doubt that there is a needed symbiosis between us homans and many organisms. Parasites, by definition are pathologic to the host overall. Certainly, exposure to “germs” in the young is needed to develop the immune system.
I think the whole gist of the “clean” Taha was referring to is akin to saying that he may not want gross contamination of the oud through growth of little critters during the creation process like I would not like amniotic fluid in my cereal.
No doubt that there is a needed symbiosis between us homans and many organisms. Parasites, by definition are pathologic to the host overall. Certainly, exposure to “germs” in the young is needed to develop the immune system.
I think the whole gist of the “clean” Taha was referring to is akin to saying that he may not want gross contamination of the oud through growth of little critters during the creation process like I would not like amniotic fluid in my cereal.
Not only that but the reporting of illnesses and medical statistics from underdeveloped countries is suspect, and that is putting it as mildly as I can. And the absolute golden rule of correlation does not mean causation cannot be overstated.
No doubt that there is a needed symbiosis between us homans and many organisms. Parasites, by definition are pathologic to the host overall. Certainly, exposure to “germs” in the young is needed to develop the immune system.
I think the whole gist of the “clean” Taha was referring to is akin to saying that he may not want gross contamination of the oud through growth of little critters during the creation process like I would not like amniotic fluid in my cereal.
No doubt that there is a needed symbiosis between us homans and many organisms. Parasites, by definition are pathologic to the host overall. Certainly, exposure to “germs” in the young is needed to develop the immune system.
I think the whole gist of the “clean” Taha was referring to is akin to saying that he may not want gross contamination of the oud through growth of little critters during the creation process like I would not like amniotic fluid in my cereal.
My current reading would argue that the biggest issue with your breakfast is not the amniotic fluid but the cereal.
@Dorje I literally just checked into my hotel after a tiresome journey, but I've got your question soaking in the back of my mind, and will do my best to give my two scents as soon as the day's work is done tomorrow. Have a good night, everyone.
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@Taha
there is so much i dont get from the whole maggot post.
what does maggots in post ditillate material that is left to rot from a batch you cooked (non barny) yourself has to do with barny oils? btw, how are the larvae alive after distillation and exposure to high temps?
even the body of the cleanest eater in the world will reveal parasites and what not living organism symbiotically living together. we are all a big ball of micro organisms. the risk of suggesting causality: wood not cleaned properly=barn. maggot is bad=barny oil is then also bad is pretty strong message that i think oversimplifies things. you know me, i dont like the barn note like yourself but that is aside this.
i for one think the message you are trying to share is not correlating with the video or coming across the way intended. try again?
there is so much i dont get from the whole maggot post.
what does maggots in post ditillate material that is left to rot from a batch you cooked (non barny) yourself has to do with barny oils? btw, how are the larvae alive after distillation and exposure to high temps?
even the body of the cleanest eater in the world will reveal parasites and what not living organism symbiotically living together. we are all a big ball of micro organisms. the risk of suggesting causality: wood not cleaned properly=barn. maggot is bad=barny oil is then also bad is pretty strong message that i think oversimplifies things. you know me, i dont like the barn note like yourself but that is aside this.
i for one think the message you are trying to share is not correlating with the video or coming across the way intended. try again?
i thought some more about this.
innocent before proven guilty. thats how i think we should operate. to each their own.
i am gonna call taha and have a chat and will post the findings. for now here is what i think:
i think his maggot post was a bad one as the material is post distillate and not pre soak. if he was a non soaker and using this as ane example why, i couldn't understand it (still not agree though, but understand. what makes it confusing is that he is a soaker. he advocated it. it is ensar that for some style of oils or for the most part is a non soaker). is also simplistic evidence in jumping to conclusion.
i think he saw the maggots, got excited and thought is cool to video it and share. i think we dont need to see maggots to get a barny oil. non-visible to the naked eye micro organism growth, fermentation, etc. can affect the oil's aroma too. i think we shouldn't get hung up on the fact that the post was that of post distillate spent material. i think taha is trying to say hey look: even in my own clean home, and using drinking water, using a clean vessel and even after distillation, there is so much crap in the mixture that if you let it soak in ambient temperatures it will end up south very soon . now imagine those who willingly soak for long periods of time, use dirty water, dirty vessel, dont clean the wood, etc. imagine that. that is the soruce of barn. i could be totally wrong. ill find out and share with you.
lets ask the man instead of putting words in his mouth. thats why i hate the fact that we have two forums for such a small community and instead of one place where we man up and publicly ask and demand a reply to a controversial post, we get fractioned answers and posts here and there...
the whole soak or not to soak is not simple discussion. to each their own. purposely encouraging micro organism growth can add complexity to finishing scent or can ruin it. some may like nuances of it and some hate any trace of it and some love it in excess. same exists in world of beer and wine. a bacteria called Brettanomyces is something many winemakers try to avoid and if a batch has it, they discard it and while others don't mind nuances of it and others fully and purposely innoculate their beer or wine with it.
innocent before proven guilty. thats how i think we should operate. to each their own.
i am gonna call taha and have a chat and will post the findings. for now here is what i think:
i think his maggot post was a bad one as the material is post distillate and not pre soak. if he was a non soaker and using this as ane example why, i couldn't understand it (still not agree though, but understand. what makes it confusing is that he is a soaker. he advocated it. it is ensar that for some style of oils or for the most part is a non soaker). is also simplistic evidence in jumping to conclusion.
i think he saw the maggots, got excited and thought is cool to video it and share. i think we dont need to see maggots to get a barny oil. non-visible to the naked eye micro organism growth, fermentation, etc. can affect the oil's aroma too. i think we shouldn't get hung up on the fact that the post was that of post distillate spent material. i think taha is trying to say hey look: even in my own clean home, and using drinking water, using a clean vessel and even after distillation, there is so much crap in the mixture that if you let it soak in ambient temperatures it will end up south very soon . now imagine those who willingly soak for long periods of time, use dirty water, dirty vessel, dont clean the wood, etc. imagine that. that is the soruce of barn. i could be totally wrong. ill find out and share with you.
lets ask the man instead of putting words in his mouth. thats why i hate the fact that we have two forums for such a small community and instead of one place where we man up and publicly ask and demand a reply to a controversial post, we get fractioned answers and posts here and there...
the whole soak or not to soak is not simple discussion. to each their own. purposely encouraging micro organism growth can add complexity to finishing scent or can ruin it. some may like nuances of it and some hate any trace of it and some love it in excess. same exists in world of beer and wine. a bacteria called Brettanomyces is something many winemakers try to avoid and if a batch has it, they discard it and while others don't mind nuances of it and others fully and purposely innoculate their beer or wine with it.
I invite you to explore the wonderful world of Bulgarian and Turkish rose ottos. Rather than distillation ‘techniques’, their secret is making sure their rose crops get enough water. They know very well, the only thing that will produce a superior oil is a superior harvest. No one talks about otto that smells ‘just like the petals’ it was pressed from. Because the easiest thing in the world for a distiller to make is an oil that smells—here goes—exactly like the raw materials he’s distilling.
The equation changes in the world of oud, where folks have got superstitious beliefs they like to hang on to—like soaking the wood for two weeks will result in a better yield. These superstitions have inadvertently led to a ‘tradition’ surrounding each region—e.g. all Hindis must smell like sheep droppings or they’re not ‘legit.’
My job is to shed light wherever I can and get you to think critically. Actually, wait. Scrap that. My job is to sell you oud and convince you that my USP is better than the next guy’s. My passion, on the other hand, is to do the former. I almost had an argument with Kruger after my last post because apparently the ‘agarwood is rot’ simile involving pus, pimples and rotting flesh might ‘put people off agarwood’. My answer: ‘F#€& agarwood. The truth is the truth.’
Now, I don’t know where Rasoul’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’ talk is coming from, but I sure hope it’s not in relation to anything I said. As I redundantly ‘prefaced’ above, if there’s anyone who hates soaking in this industry, it’s me. (Maggot-breeding Taha loooves soaking btw.) Now, I could kick back and relax as @kesiro puts all of his ‘generational’ amniotic fluids on garage sale for fear of maggots mushrooming out of the bottles. Or we can say, ‘Look, doc. If they ain’t killed ya already, most likely they ain’t gonna kill ya.’
The equation changes in the world of oud, where folks have got superstitious beliefs they like to hang on to—like soaking the wood for two weeks will result in a better yield. These superstitions have inadvertently led to a ‘tradition’ surrounding each region—e.g. all Hindis must smell like sheep droppings or they’re not ‘legit.’
My job is to shed light wherever I can and get you to think critically. Actually, wait. Scrap that. My job is to sell you oud and convince you that my USP is better than the next guy’s. My passion, on the other hand, is to do the former. I almost had an argument with Kruger after my last post because apparently the ‘agarwood is rot’ simile involving pus, pimples and rotting flesh might ‘put people off agarwood’. My answer: ‘F#€& agarwood. The truth is the truth.’
Now, I don’t know where Rasoul’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’ talk is coming from, but I sure hope it’s not in relation to anything I said. As I redundantly ‘prefaced’ above, if there’s anyone who hates soaking in this industry, it’s me. (Maggot-breeding Taha loooves soaking btw.)
Now, I could kick back and relax as @kesiro puts all of his ‘generational’ amniotic fluids on garage sale for fear of maggots mushrooming out of the bottles. Or we can say, ‘Look, doc. If they ain’t killed ya already, most likely they ain’t gonna kill ya.’
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In all seriousness though, I have to say a few things. The discourse here and the open willingness to learn is such a wonderful thing. Philip, Rasoul, koool-man, ez-P, many others, and certainly myself have no direct experience with any of the techniques and processes so I want to thank you Ensar and Taha personally for teaching us. Your insights are treasured. And thanks to those who are participating in the dialog.
I had the self inflicted misfortune of reading some of the comments about this issue on the other forum and it made me appreciate you all that much more.
I had the self inflicted misfortune of reading some of the comments about this issue on the other forum and it made me appreciate you all that much more.
Let those who mock, mock! Some people even though look like grown old men still have childish behaviors. We call those kind of people immature. I think some people get some type of irresistible pleasure causing discomfort to others. Those who don’t know anything about the trade, what pain, what gain, what loss, and to top it off make it a point to falsely accuse the very same person’s oil they where? Shaking my head seriously.
I invite you to explore the wonderful world of Bulgarian and Turkish rose ottos. Rather than distillation ‘techniques’, their secret is making sure their rose crops get enough water. They know very well, the only thing that will produce a superior oil is a superior harvest. No one talks about otto that smells ‘just like the petals’ it was pressed from. Because the easiest thing in the world for a distiller to make is an oil that smells—here goes—exactly like the raw materials he’s distilling.
The equation changes in the world of oud, where folks have got superstitious beliefs they like to hang on to—like soaking the wood for two weeks will result in a better yield. These superstitions have inadvertently led to a ‘tradition’ surrounding each region—e.g. all Hindis must smell like sheep droppings or they’re not ‘legit.’
My job is to shed light wherever I can and get you to think critically. Actually, wait. Scrap that. My job is to sell you oud and convince you that my USP is better than the next guy’s. My passion, on the other hand, is to do the former. I almost had an argument with Kruger after my last post because apparently the ‘agarwood is rot’ simile involving pus, pimples and rotting flesh might ‘put people off agarwood’. My answer: ‘F#€& agarwood. The truth is the truth.’
Now, I don’t know where Rasoul’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’ talk is coming from, but I sure hope it’s not in relation to anything I said. As I redundantly ‘prefaced’ above, if there’s anyone who hates soaking in this industry, it’s me. (Maggot-breeding Taha loooves soaking btw.) Now, I could kick back and relax as @kesiro puts all of his ‘generational’ amniotic fluids on garage sale for fear of maggots mushrooming out of the bottles. Or we can say, ‘Look, doc. If they ain’t killed ya already, most likely they ain’t gonna kill ya.’
The equation changes in the world of oud, where folks have got superstitious beliefs they like to hang on to—like soaking the wood for two weeks will result in a better yield. These superstitions have inadvertently led to a ‘tradition’ surrounding each region—e.g. all Hindis must smell like sheep droppings or they’re not ‘legit.’
My job is to shed light wherever I can and get you to think critically. Actually, wait. Scrap that. My job is to sell you oud and convince you that my USP is better than the next guy’s. My passion, on the other hand, is to do the former. I almost had an argument with Kruger after my last post because apparently the ‘agarwood is rot’ simile involving pus, pimples and rotting flesh might ‘put people off agarwood’. My answer: ‘F#€& agarwood. The truth is the truth.’
Now, I don’t know where Rasoul’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’ talk is coming from, but I sure hope it’s not in relation to anything I said. As I redundantly ‘prefaced’ above, if there’s anyone who hates soaking in this industry, it’s me. (Maggot-breeding Taha loooves soaking btw.)
Now, I could kick back and relax as @kesiro puts all of his ‘generational’ amniotic fluids on garage sale for fear of maggots mushrooming out of the bottles. Or we can say, ‘Look, doc. If they ain’t killed ya already, most likely they ain’t gonna kill ya.’
On a separate, Honestly all of the different philosophies and thoughts around distilling oud is the same and true in world of cooking, wine, beer tea painting garments and clothing etc. I.e when the raw material are either exceptional or of seriously unique quality the artisan working with it often opts to go the minimal route of not messing about and simply capturing the essence and presenting it. I like to think that’s what you did with nha trang ltd ensar. O toro of blue fin tuna doesn’t get ground up with spices and deep fried nor does it get marinated and grilled or served with hot sauce. An exceptional mango or blueberry if turned into a sorbet doesn’t need sugar or other flavourings or add ons. A beautiful painting doesn’t need a big fancy frame to make it pop. On the contrary a thin smile frame works better.
Now turning New Guinea signature wood that ensar oud sells (to my nose a good but not great grade of wood. To me is probably much better for oil purposes than incense or mon koh) to oils like abdus selam or Ahmet or so many other 2014 sultans is something special. To turn a tough piece of meat like brisket to a beautiful and delicious food requires art and experience. Knowing Sceince always helps too.
@Ensar, nah, ‘guilty until proven innocent’ wasn’t directed at you, but at the usual guy.
The same gentleman who thinks my posting about the hunters’ death / leg crushing has some pity-rousing agenda with sales connotations. He doesn’t know that I refused to sell Pilipinas No.1 (far more suffering involved, not just the team but me myself as well, financially as well as physically). And that whoever I did send small amounts to, were folks who I wanted to share this oil with, and it was at far far far below cost. And when I say far, I mean FAR below.
'Capitalizing', huh. Right.
Having said that, I can tell you that there haven’t been any jabs at you in the longest time on ‘that’ website you’re referring to, so you need not worry about that.
Its okay though, folks who have never seen a distillation of rotted or fermented or untampered wood… are entitled to their preference-driven opinion. I can just shrug my shoulders. And I’m entitled to my observation-based beliefs as well. Wait, clearly I don’t know, coz I don’t distill.
You, living in Singapore, know very well what happens to a bucket of clean drinking water if you just let it sit out (yes, covered) for a few days. No maggots. But the water gets slimy.
“Shit smell” per your teachers might sound a bit of a stretch to most of us, but I can understand where they’re coming from.
One can choose to believe what they like, but I’m the one who goes to offsite distilleries for larger scale distillations and have to disassemble everything and thoroughly wash and scrape to remove the insect paste build up which, YES, has an effect on the aroma (@m.arif, I’m sure you recall the “bau busuk” Malaysian oil). So yeah.. what do I know right???
Ensar, I haven’t for a second forgotten the fact that you are quite OCD-driven as well, and I haven’t forgotten your prefacing post (#461) either. Nor have I forgotten what you have expressed to me in person.
I will say however, that I do however prefer neither amniotic fluid nor maggots in my oatmeal, and the same goes for the distillation feedstock.
I know you don’t either.
But my maggot post was a deliberate (but fact-based) hyperbole to prove a point.
So even though neither you nor any other online vendor would approve of co-distilling agarwood and maggots (whereas for the mass-produced junk that IS the norm, and you, Ensar, who travel and see, know that), the point of the hyperbole was what the point of any hyperbole is: to present the most extreme case (yet still sadly standard, as far as mass market oud is concerned), to give weight to my actual topic of contention, namely: fermented oud.
And unlike what our dear friend alluded to (me capitalizing on death and disaster by posting the photos), the balanced mind will come to a very different conclusion from my post: that Taha is showing the suffering involved immediately followed by the maggot video... so that consumers will better value and appreciate unwarped agarwood. And realize how little respect is typically given to it, at the hands of mainstream distillers.
As for fermented oud, I said it before and I’ll say it again: it is not the same as rotted oud.
And I said it before, and I’ll say it again: whereas I am unable to appreciate (or produce) it any more, this is a Taha thing, my personal conscious decision that I'm entitled to.
…and fermented oud ≠ rotted oud.
Clear enough folks?
Finally, I got a storm of private messages reprimanding me of criticizing “other vendors”...
Guys - vendors and their ever-more-passionate defenders - not everything I post is a criticism of “other vendors”. I’ve done footnote upon footnote, after footnote after footnote in the past BECAUSE of your reprimands. I have then gotten followup private messages from other people scratching their heads, wondering why I’m always (utterly-inorganically) bringing up other vendors and their oils in some of my posts. It makes me look like a fool, because those utterly unrelated references to other vendors/oils stick out like a sore thumb. And yet I did it only to appease you.
Just because I don’t single out every vendor and laud them and their products in every single post, does not mean I have waged war on them. Must I be dragged up to the stand and forced to sing praises of oils A B and C from vendors X Y and Z, every time I open my mouth about anything? I’m starting to get a bit tired of being dragged like that.
I was having a conversation WITH Ensar here, hence why I addressed Ensar. My leaving out names (now, or earlier, or ever) has no twisted connotations. I was neither cleverly attacking Ensar’s oils.. nor any other vendor's.
YES I don’t like fermented oud, because like rotted oud (the hyberbole in this scenario) it is warped. And yes, that IS a fact. In that sense, yes, my vocalization of my preference pertaining to that fact can be seen by a twisted mind as an ‘attack’, but its actually just the statement of a preference. To me, fermented oud is oud perfume, and it does have a place, it is art. Just not a genre I’m interested in. And this is meant as no disrespect towards Ensar or anyone else that sells fermented oud alongside any other type of oud they sell. Nor an attack at anyone who appreciates "oud art" oils.
As for the photos of the hunters, again, they were supposed to dramatize that for a well-meaning and fully thought-out effect: to help people understand why their oils smell like chocolate and animals (fermented, NOT rotted oud) or feces and carcasses (YES rotted oud), so they can have a deeper admiration for NON barnyard oils – by looking at the difficulty of procuring high quality agarwood, and then appreciate its truest essence.
Sans maggots, sans anything.
TRUE oud (per my definition) ain’t feminine or masculine or new age or old age. It is timeless, genderless and genreless. And in it, the hand of man is absent.
Borneo 3000 was the oil that first opened my eyes to this.
Okay, fine, fine, I’ll do it. Here are my wrists, drag me to the stand.
“And also oils like Imperial’s Ceylon Royale and Shareef’s Ceen and Adam’s Royal Vietnam and oh gosh dontshootmewoudja if I forgot any vendors / haven’t smelled oils from certain vendors.”
/facepalm
Get off your computers folks. Take a walk, smell the flowers. Maybe even let me bag you up and take you with me on the next hunt. Or at the very least… see an actual distillation before you make categorical statements that only demonstrate compound ignorance.
The well-known barnyard, although NOT always a result of rot, IS a result of fermentation at the very least. You can love it. More power to you. But… at least know what you’re smelling, and don’t fool yourself into thinking the wood actually smelled like that.
And this last short paragraph was the intended message, and I know many already understood that.
The same gentleman who thinks my posting about the hunters’ death / leg crushing has some pity-rousing agenda with sales connotations. He doesn’t know that I refused to sell Pilipinas No.1 (far more suffering involved, not just the team but me myself as well, financially as well as physically). And that whoever I did send small amounts to, were folks who I wanted to share this oil with, and it was at far far far below cost. And when I say far, I mean FAR below.
'Capitalizing', huh. Right.
Having said that, I can tell you that there haven’t been any jabs at you in the longest time on ‘that’ website you’re referring to, so you need not worry about that.
Its okay though, folks who have never seen a distillation of rotted or fermented or untampered wood… are entitled to their preference-driven opinion. I can just shrug my shoulders. And I’m entitled to my observation-based beliefs as well. Wait, clearly I don’t know, coz I don’t distill.
You, living in Singapore, know very well what happens to a bucket of clean drinking water if you just let it sit out (yes, covered) for a few days. No maggots. But the water gets slimy.
“Shit smell” per your teachers might sound a bit of a stretch to most of us, but I can understand where they’re coming from.
One can choose to believe what they like, but I’m the one who goes to offsite distilleries for larger scale distillations and have to disassemble everything and thoroughly wash and scrape to remove the insect paste build up which, YES, has an effect on the aroma (@m.arif, I’m sure you recall the “bau busuk” Malaysian oil). So yeah.. what do I know right???
Ensar, I haven’t for a second forgotten the fact that you are quite OCD-driven as well, and I haven’t forgotten your prefacing post (#461) either. Nor have I forgotten what you have expressed to me in person.
I will say however, that I do however prefer neither amniotic fluid nor maggots in my oatmeal, and the same goes for the distillation feedstock.
I know you don’t either.
But my maggot post was a deliberate (but fact-based) hyperbole to prove a point.
So even though neither you nor any other online vendor would approve of co-distilling agarwood and maggots (whereas for the mass-produced junk that IS the norm, and you, Ensar, who travel and see, know that), the point of the hyperbole was what the point of any hyperbole is: to present the most extreme case (yet still sadly standard, as far as mass market oud is concerned), to give weight to my actual topic of contention, namely: fermented oud.
And unlike what our dear friend alluded to (me capitalizing on death and disaster by posting the photos), the balanced mind will come to a very different conclusion from my post: that Taha is showing the suffering involved immediately followed by the maggot video... so that consumers will better value and appreciate unwarped agarwood. And realize how little respect is typically given to it, at the hands of mainstream distillers.
As for fermented oud, I said it before and I’ll say it again: it is not the same as rotted oud.
And I said it before, and I’ll say it again: whereas I am unable to appreciate (or produce) it any more, this is a Taha thing, my personal conscious decision that I'm entitled to.
…and fermented oud ≠ rotted oud.
Clear enough folks?
Finally, I got a storm of private messages reprimanding me of criticizing “other vendors”...
Guys - vendors and their ever-more-passionate defenders - not everything I post is a criticism of “other vendors”. I’ve done footnote upon footnote, after footnote after footnote in the past BECAUSE of your reprimands. I have then gotten followup private messages from other people scratching their heads, wondering why I’m always (utterly-inorganically) bringing up other vendors and their oils in some of my posts. It makes me look like a fool, because those utterly unrelated references to other vendors/oils stick out like a sore thumb. And yet I did it only to appease you.
Just because I don’t single out every vendor and laud them and their products in every single post, does not mean I have waged war on them. Must I be dragged up to the stand and forced to sing praises of oils A B and C from vendors X Y and Z, every time I open my mouth about anything? I’m starting to get a bit tired of being dragged like that.
I was having a conversation WITH Ensar here, hence why I addressed Ensar. My leaving out names (now, or earlier, or ever) has no twisted connotations. I was neither cleverly attacking Ensar’s oils.. nor any other vendor's.
YES I don’t like fermented oud, because like rotted oud (the hyberbole in this scenario) it is warped. And yes, that IS a fact. In that sense, yes, my vocalization of my preference pertaining to that fact can be seen by a twisted mind as an ‘attack’, but its actually just the statement of a preference. To me, fermented oud is oud perfume, and it does have a place, it is art. Just not a genre I’m interested in. And this is meant as no disrespect towards Ensar or anyone else that sells fermented oud alongside any other type of oud they sell. Nor an attack at anyone who appreciates "oud art" oils.
As for the photos of the hunters, again, they were supposed to dramatize that for a well-meaning and fully thought-out effect: to help people understand why their oils smell like chocolate and animals (fermented, NOT rotted oud) or feces and carcasses (YES rotted oud), so they can have a deeper admiration for NON barnyard oils – by looking at the difficulty of procuring high quality agarwood, and then appreciate its truest essence.
Sans maggots, sans anything.
TRUE oud (per my definition) ain’t feminine or masculine or new age or old age. It is timeless, genderless and genreless. And in it, the hand of man is absent.
Borneo 3000 was the oil that first opened my eyes to this.
Okay, fine, fine, I’ll do it. Here are my wrists, drag me to the stand.
“And also oils like Imperial’s Ceylon Royale and Shareef’s Ceen and Adam’s Royal Vietnam and oh gosh dontshootmewoudja if I forgot any vendors / haven’t smelled oils from certain vendors.”
/facepalm
Get off your computers folks. Take a walk, smell the flowers. Maybe even let me bag you up and take you with me on the next hunt. Or at the very least… see an actual distillation before you make categorical statements that only demonstrate compound ignorance.
The well-known barnyard, although NOT always a result of rot, IS a result of fermentation at the very least. You can love it. More power to you. But… at least know what you’re smelling, and don’t fool yourself into thinking the wood actually smelled like that.
And this last short paragraph was the intended message, and I know many already understood that.
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So I talked to taha.
As suspected his point about the maggot infested video was: IF in his home, with clean drinking water, with post distilled material, with cooler air than your typical distillery, maggots and other critters thrive, then imagine the conditions in which wood left to soak in ground water for months will do. Fair enough. The man doesn’t like barn notes derived from the process. What’s wrong with that. Live and let live. Some like it some don’t. To each their own.
Side note:
Wouldn’t most of our problems go away if we had different vocabulary for all sorts of different notes we (Oud community) simply call barn? I mean there are so many different notes and aspects to a barn. Eg chugoku senkoh is more like hay and aged leather. Or Zachariyya is horse saddle leather. Then you have barn as in droppings, fecal matter, decay, rot, sour notes that are either result of fermentation via rogue bacteria or dirty vessels or the way oil is seperated from hydro soil by some...
The judging of which barn is good or bad is up to each individual. I dislike all. Well minus the hay and rare examples of a mild leather note. Some love all. Respect to all. Now let’s try and use more specific wording rather than general barn to describe oils.
Back to my talk with taha. When asked about the picture of a deceased hunter and another fellow hunter with badly broken leg, taha’s Sincere (to me at least) explanation was he wanted people to remember the realities of the world of Oud. The dangers. The pitfalls. The losses. The expenses. All of it. It was meant to remind us to appreciate Oud and furthermore to him it is utterly and totally disrespectful to not allow the substance that is so rare and acquiring it comes with so many sad stories, shine under the best light. To taha this means absence of extended soaking. Absence of techniques that encourage microbial bacterial etc. growth. To taha the single greatest homage to pay to the wood to the hunters to the people to the nature etc. is to capture the essence of the wood as is and turn it into oil. Not play with it to change its nature or introduce new aromatics. He even opened up to me geniounly about his deep sadness when making attar with oud because he is changing (adding) to the most precious thing for him. He has had to do it at times bc of economic needs and business reasons.
Anyways that’s what I got from my conversation with him and everyone is welcome to take the above how they like. With a pinch of salt a grain or a pound or none.
Respect.
After original post edit: I had talked to taha about a couple hours or so before he posted above. So in actual timeline rad my note first then the long reply from taha
As suspected his point about the maggot infested video was: IF in his home, with clean drinking water, with post distilled material, with cooler air than your typical distillery, maggots and other critters thrive, then imagine the conditions in which wood left to soak in ground water for months will do. Fair enough. The man doesn’t like barn notes derived from the process. What’s wrong with that. Live and let live. Some like it some don’t. To each their own.
Side note:
Wouldn’t most of our problems go away if we had different vocabulary for all sorts of different notes we (Oud community) simply call barn? I mean there are so many different notes and aspects to a barn. Eg chugoku senkoh is more like hay and aged leather. Or Zachariyya is horse saddle leather. Then you have barn as in droppings, fecal matter, decay, rot, sour notes that are either result of fermentation via rogue bacteria or dirty vessels or the way oil is seperated from hydro soil by some...
The judging of which barn is good or bad is up to each individual. I dislike all. Well minus the hay and rare examples of a mild leather note. Some love all. Respect to all. Now let’s try and use more specific wording rather than general barn to describe oils.
Back to my talk with taha. When asked about the picture of a deceased hunter and another fellow hunter with badly broken leg, taha’s Sincere (to me at least) explanation was he wanted people to remember the realities of the world of Oud. The dangers. The pitfalls. The losses. The expenses. All of it. It was meant to remind us to appreciate Oud and furthermore to him it is utterly and totally disrespectful to not allow the substance that is so rare and acquiring it comes with so many sad stories, shine under the best light. To taha this means absence of extended soaking. Absence of techniques that encourage microbial bacterial etc. growth. To taha the single greatest homage to pay to the wood to the hunters to the people to the nature etc. is to capture the essence of the wood as is and turn it into oil. Not play with it to change its nature or introduce new aromatics. He even opened up to me geniounly about his deep sadness when making attar with oud because he is changing (adding) to the most precious thing for him. He has had to do it at times bc of economic needs and business reasons.
Anyways that’s what I got from my conversation with him and everyone is welcome to take the above how they like. With a pinch of salt a grain or a pound or none.
Respect.
After original post edit: I had talked to taha about a couple hours or so before he posted above. So in actual timeline rad my note first then the long reply from taha
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