Let's talk Oud: a detailed discourse on the various aspects of this substance we love

Seems like this topic has gone way off course... anyway joining this topic a bit late, but after reading Taha's first post...

Jamaican Blue mountain coffee beans, some of the best of the best coffee beans I have tried. Imported from the hills of Jamaica. You can truly taste the difference between these and regular coffee beans. Buts its not just about buying the name, it all comes down to how you brew the coffee. There are a number of brewing methods that you have to get right. Then you need to have tried many different types of coffee beans to notice the difference. Its like drinking instant coffee and saying its the best coffee in the world, when you haven't ever tried coffee beans from around the world.

Just like with oud and distillations

Well there is no tactic involved here..I stand to gain nothing from reporting this except peace at heart knowing that I have spoken out so that consumers are aware that a product being sold is not what it is stated to be, and the vendor continues to sell it knowing that.

Verbal witness is an important proof, if JK is not willing to state here that the 1985 is 100% pure Oud and he is fully willing to put his name and reputation behind that claim, I must insist that what I have stated about the oil should be taken with seriousness.

When I approached other vendors with such a challenge they did not shy away for a split second in saying that they gladly rest their reputation on the oils they sell. My point is, us consumers need to have a trust that these vendors only sell what they believe is legitimate and are willing to put their reputation against that claim.

Otherwise this industry is going to evolve into a scene where anyone can begin to sell what they want for whatever prices they want and many will suffer as a result.

Where Taher says there is no tactic involved - would Taher like to admit here that he openly stated to me back in September that he was going to try and Blackmail me? Will you admit to that?

Ensar has told me that there are 3 other vendors whom Taher has enlisted that are bad mouthing me behind my back to people of the Oud community. Will Taher admit to enlisting other vendors to bad mouth me? That is a tactic, Taher. Premeditated and now you are making it public.

Is the Cambodi 85 used in that one specific Ghaliyah questionable - yes. Is every other material used in all 4 Ghaliyah's natural - yes. I had never tested the Cambodi 85, nor have I ever listed it as an individual item for sale. Have people bought it - yes - when they ask for unlisted items, and I openly disclose any information to a client when they ask. This was stated ad nauseum to Taher before he purchased it. I might also add that he sampled it, asked to buy a full bottle of the Cambodi 85, and then comes back demanding a refund (after being told that it was never GC'd, after being given every iota of information that I had about the oil, even after sampling it first - and then buying more of it anyway) but did so and then came back demanding a refund in a way that is the set up of a classical scam, along with the promise to blackmail me. Even when my site plainly states that there are no refunds (it's why every vendor offers and suggests to sample first) - and he sampled the product before buying more. Not sure why, given that he had all the same information that I did, and then claimed that I was somehow misleading him. An absolutely false claim, btw.

I might also add that Ensar told me that Taher brought him a bunch of oils from various vendors (most of whom all would know) - included among them was my Ghaliyah set. To quote Ensar in a chat we had about this topic last night:

"As a side note… Taher and I met recently at the Dubai OudFest. As folks are wont to do at such events, he showed up with a truckload of bottles, samples, wood chips, etc for me to check out and evaluate.

The samples included Taha's most recent Laotian oils, Shano Shokat, Adam's Borneo Adventure II and Trat Adventure, two Ghaliyas by Al Shareef Oudh, Al Shareef 2, Oud Qais, JKs Ghaliyah (Kunchari, Cachari?), JK's Pursat oil, and several nameless oils sourced via the internet.

When all was said and done, and after washing my forearms with soap several times after trying everything, I had this to say:

"From everything that I smelled here today, the very best thing that you brought with you is that Ghaliyah by JK DeLapp."

Taher - get off your high horse. There is nothing in the Ghaliyah listing that is dubious. I've had a dozen people look at it, including Ensar - none of whom thought that there was anything misleading about that listing. Here it is if people would like to review it for themselves:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/265465139/ghaliyah-al-phoenix-collectors-set?ref=shop_home_feat_1

Again - this guy has openly stated that he is out to Blackmail me - and has enlisted the help of 3 other vendors. No tactic??

I do my best to bend over backwards for every client I have. I give all known information that I have about a product when someone asks. And as you can see...it still isn't good enough for some people.

My apologies that Taher has taken us so far off course.

As always - if anyone has any questions about a product - please ask. People who have bought from me know that I am free with the information I have, that I am more than happy to accommodate a customer - and hopefully everyone understands a little bit better the crap that gets slung at the vendors.

My apologies for any confusion, it is never an intention to mislead anyone, and I cannot help if a client goes a little bonkers on me.

Man. I cannot believe all the incredible anger, accusations and treachery that comes out of such a beautiful thing. All the plotting and double-crossing, blackmailing and spies. I was a spy, you know? Yep, because I dared go to the other site and talk about Ensar's amazing oils. I haven't even been on this journey a year and it's like people can't stand to see the magic it has on the newbie. They've just got to bash it out of you. Now I see guys like kesiro and koolaid and Robert heading over there, really just me a few months ago, and I read their amazed optimistic and unslanted posts and reviews, and I'm both envious and pained. Because I can just feel the vultures circling overhead, the snakes slithering beneath, the hyenas ready to pounce.

But I guess it's here too. I guess with such a valuable substance, $1000s/gram at times, it's bound to attract the worst, and even make generally good people act in uncharacteristic ways. I'm not quite sure what to think anymore, is Oud some magical elixir or something more akin to The Ring from Lord of the Rings, destined to corrupt, slowly but inevitably?

I never enlisted anyone. And I am not aware of the badmouthing that u said is going on.

Thanks for admitting u sell dodgy oils. Please don't anymore or mention it's dodgy so buy at your own risk. The Cambodi 1985 and Yunnan Cha are examples of your lack of ability to distinguish real from fake oud so source your oud from vendors who sell genuine oils so that u are not relying on your lack of ability to discern.

People trust u when u sell oud, or oud based mukhallats...they should not have to inquire whether it is pure and check explicitly whether u put ure reputation behind it or not. I bought the oil liking its scent...trusting it was oud. If someone sold me the best tasting chicken but it turned out to be pork I would demand my money back and that's not called blackmailing. It is only after I purchased it and it was brought to your attention that it is synthetic u admitted that whenever u say 100% pure oud what u really mean is that u did not adulterate it. And admitted that as a perfumer u occasionally use synthetics. Refund policies are when the oil does not meet personal preference, not when the oil is fake.

I encourage everyone to buy his ghaliyas, they are beautiful and I stand by that...but just be aware that it is not natural and the oud in it is synthetic. Simple.

I am your kindred spirit in this regard Brian. This forum was so nice until this unsolicited, unnecessary, unpleasant crap came up. I still don't get it.

And Taherg, what ever you claim your intensions were, you only succeeded in clearly demonstrating to everyone that you are a person not do business with, EVER. As a business owner myself, this kind of thing is a nightmare.

Again - the only Oud in question is the Cambodi 85. The other Ouds used in the Ghaliyahs are custom RP distillations.

There he goes again, throwing mud.

Again - I warn everyone and the @moderators as well - Taher has openly admitted to blackmail.

@bhanny and everyone else - I apologize. This is the kind of crap the vendors deal with allllll the time. Working hard and doing our best to service our clients, and then there are people like Taher that step in and try and smear our reputations and our products.

@Taher - I stated what you asked me to state. The Cambodi 85 is questionable, and I have not had it GC'd. Your turn - are you going to admit to your open statement to blackmail?

Alright, amigos. This has gotten way out of line. I promised people they'd never come across any badmouthing or name-calling here like they did elsewhere, and it seems I've just failed to deliver on what I promised. I'd like to politely ask everyone to cool off, and whatever your point is, please refrain from calling other people names or attacking their dignity. It is unbecoming, and doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Clearly, JK is passionate about this subject, as his reputation is at stake. And Taherg is equally motivated in calling out what he believes to be adulterated oil, so this kind of thing can really get out of hand unless cool heads prevail.

I want to thank JK for quoting me above, but I feel as though taken out of context the greater meaning of what I had to say is lost. So I will proceed to paste my entire post here, which I was unsure about posting given the sensitive nature of this topic. I shared my post with @kesiro and @JK, wondering if this subject is even worth pursuing.

This is what I had to say:

@Taherg and @JK are both people I consider friends, and when I heard of the dispute between the two I took it upon myself to moderate between them and take all necessary means of preventing harm from reaching either party. We managed to get JK's oils back to him safely, and Taherg got his money back.

Personally, I would not blame Taherg for calling out on JK to remove the oils he felt were adulterated. He sent the oils to someone he believes to be an expert (nope, that was not me) and they guaranteed to Taherg that the oils they were sent to evaluate were adulterated with synthetics. My interjection here is not to vindicate either party. Rather I would like to express a personal concern, as a producer of oils…

In literature, we have literary criticism to help us understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given book. In politics, we have political analysts, journalists, etc. In art, we've got art critics. – Why is it that when it comes to the evaluation of oud oil, one is not allowed to express an opinion if they feel a particular vendor's product is adulterated? Is it really fair to other users that vendors be offered immunity by public forum admins from such consumer speculation?

At the end of the day, so far as I can see, Taherg didn't prove anything. All he did was state what boils down to a personal opinion, however idealistic his objectives, or 'romantic' his approach.

As a side note… Taher and I met recently at the Dubai OudFest. As folks are wont to do at such events, he showed up with a truckload of bottles, samples, wood chips, etc for me to check out and evaluate.

The samples included Taha's most recent Laotian oils, Shano Shokat, Adam's Borneo Adventure II and Trat Adventure, two Ghaliyas by Al Shareef Oudh, Al Shareef 2, Oud Qais, JKs Ghaliyah (Kunchari, Cachari?), JK's Pursat oil, and several nameless oils sourced via the internet.

When all was said and done, and after washing my forearms with soap several times after trying everything, I had this to say:

"From everything that I smelled here today, the very best thing that you brought with you is that Ghaliyah by JK DeLapp."

Now, I could clearly pick up synthetics in certain other oils I was shown. Others were clearly cultivated. I could tell you where the raw materials for an allegedly wild oil came from, and how long they were soaked and the type of barrel they were soaked in.

We as a collective need to decide, is it to the benefit or detriment of the end user for this information to be made known? Do we want experienced 'oud critics' to be available to this community, or do we opt to provide immunity to vendors?

I hope everyone will see where I am coming from. Without an expert being free to review and offer insights into the oils that are being sold in this market, anything goes… The problem is that speaking out, you run the risk of being labelled as 'bashing the competition' or having an agenda, so the set up can never be ideal, unless there is communal consensus to have this sort of thing going on.

I really, really wish that the other expert who gave the original verdict on JK's oils would be allowed to come out of the woodworks and make his voice heard, as well as offer objective pointers to help everyone understand how he reached the conclusion that the oils were adulterated. For the sake of collective edification alone, and not to tarnish anyone's reputation or business.

I can tell you right now, if it were proved constructively that the oils in question were dubious, JK would only gain in the sight of everyone, rather than lose. He already proved to be very gracious in accommodating a dissatisfied customer. The willingness to accept criticism and work with the market would only elevate his reputation rather than harm him. This is my view, and it is based on firsthand experience.

I've personally been called a thousand names, labelled a thousand libelous nicknames, and so far as I can see whatever those of ill intent were out to accomplish, they could not harm me in any way. At the end of the day, the people who have dealt with me personally and experienced my oils have their own take on me and my company, based on firsthand experience with my product. Try as they could, they could not harm me in the least.

The same holds true for JK, Taha, Adam, anyone else.

Great post Ensar. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly would NEVER object to honest debate and discussion of issues civilly. I certainly don't want to pretend we live in a fantasy land that everyone and everything is perfect. I just personally can't stand the venomousity I've noted so frequently. I apologize if anyone felt my post was directed toward JK/taherg, it wasn't. I was just commenting on what I personally have noted and felt recently regarding the whole scene. Maybe it's always been like this and I was just so fresh and naive.

My solution - Take a step back and a deep breath..of Kynam No1 on the left and Mysore 1984 on the right.

@JK I hope that you and all will know that the advice I give and my commentary on the subject comes from a place of being constructive and genteel. I won't attempt to speak for anyone else but I do believe that when we consumers choose to patronize the small artisan purveyors of oils, we do so with certain expectations. Among those expectations are that the product is pure, totally devoid of synthetics and adulterants, and that any issues to the contrary be disclosed without us having to ask. You have admitted that the specific Cambodi 85 oud oil is questionable, I believe that the correct thing for you to do is to openly disclose that in the product description or pull the product and any product containing it.

Never thought that my mention of adulterated cambodis catalyzed a huge discussion. I have no significant comment on the discussion so I'll just take the information in and let things pass.

Now here's a quote from Ensar's blog I'd like to ask about :

Our Cambodian pots run a maximum of nine days before the water turns clear in the glass, signaling the end of distillation. Our Burmese, Indians and Bhutanese might cook up to ten days. The Centennial set a record twenty-five days in the pot. Sultan Murad was lit on January 5th. It is February 13th as I write this, and there is no end in sight. Now that is resin, my friends. - See more at: http://agarwood.ensaroud.com/the-great-cambodian-experiment-4/#sthash.uN6L7XI5.dpuf

@Ensar, when you mention "the water turns clear in the glass.." were you referring to the hydrosol in the collector? If so, when the water turns clear, is it a standard rule of thumb signifying the end of distillation? Or there are other styles and opinions on when is the end of the distillation?

I've read some discussions that common distillers would crank up the temp to the max, to get the most oil in the shortest time, and your Sultan Murad which was cooked for more than a month, also Taha's oils which have reached close to 100 days of cooking non stop..Do all of you (Ensar,Taha, R.Adam) use the same rule to know when a distillation has reach its end?

We have three distillers here, let's ask away until their hairs turn white !

Just in case there is any more hoopla...the Ghaliya Set listing has been updated.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/265465139/ghaliyah-al-phoenix-collectors-set?ref=shop_home_feat_1

Hopefully folks realize - there is no intention to mislead.

Dear Ensar, please specify what oils you tried that were mislabeled as wild or pure in your opinion? Specially if it is relevant to Feel Oud oils. If you don't want to name other vendors it's fine. However, I would love to hear your feedback on our oils as we are among those that highly value, trust, respect and benefit from your opinion and suggestions.

I was disappointed after seeing the 'modification' of the ghaliyah listing. All it says is that u have not gc'd the oil.

No vendors here have done GC tests on their oils. Are they all willing to admit,as u did, that an oud oil their are selling or using in a mukhallat is dubious. I highly doubt it.

U were given explicit feedback from a trusted source that this Cambodi is synthetic. It is clear that u yourself don't believe it to be pure either at this point.

Many here are upset with me or believe that I have done injustice to JK while he has peddled and profited from dodgy oils.

If he did so Knowingly- that's awful.
If he did so unknowingly - then it is clear he is not a trustworthy source of Oud and I believe there needs to be some awareness of that to protect the consumer.

As an oud community we need to agree on definitions and their implications. And vendors should NOT sell products which are suspect or oils which they are not willing to put their their reputation on the line for.

So far what I have gathered from Jks dictionary using his direct words and implications so far:

1) "100% pure oud, no synthetics or additives" = "I have not myself directly added synthetics to the oud" (as said to me when I questioned him on the purity of Cambodi 1985)
- i.e. it might have been done prior to him getting the oil, he is not putting his reputation behind the purity of this oil.

2) "I have not done a gc test on this oil" = I.e. it is probably synthetic and I myself don't believe it to be pure.

I doubt that all 1000 other oils u have (which as u mention have not been gc'd) u would be willing to say publicly Are suspect to being synthetic as with the Cambodi.

We collectors are spending a great deal of money on ouds and perfumes. As PEARL rightly said, we have certain expectations from vendors. The definitions above do not meet our expectations and I, as many others would not spend money on anyone who espouses such definitions.

I invite all vendors, including JK, to clarify whether the above definitions are stated correctly and in line with their beliefs and policy.

JK, plesse clarify your position ion the above

I am SHOCKED you cannot stop yourself. Given what we have learned about the situation, and especially your role, your comments above are so off mark that no amount of mockery will suffice to address them.
I personally feel your unwillingness to stop, what clearly is a personal vendetta, is ruining this site. So I am asking, either take this elsewhere or flat out STOP. I have contacted the administrator. Bhanny yesterday wrote about his sadness and dismay at what is happening and I share his feelings times 10.

Yep. The hydrosol coming out from the pot, along with the oil. If the hydrosol looks cloudy, it generally means that there is still oil to come out. Once the hydrosol turns clear, it signifies the oil has stopped coming out and you can assume the distillation is over. While a good indicator, we generally wait an extra day or so to make sure there really is no more oil coming out, rather than stopping immediately once the hydrosol turns clear. I can see how a distiller running liters of cultivated oils per month cannot afford the extra gas and labor, and needs to keep distilling to maximize output. When dealing with raw materials as precious and expensive as what we're working with, it makes all the sense in the world to only stop cooking once the oil stops coming, rather than going by the hydrosol alone.

I would consider doing this if all the other vendors whose names were mentioned were to request an open and objective discussion – my feedback in particular – the way that you have. Otherwise, all hell might break loose....

My grief, voiced above, is an existential one. The way the market is set up, there is no freedom of expression. If you express something, it is seen as catering to your particular offering. Conflicts of interest are rife, objectivity is in very short supply, and as @bhanny chillingly pointed out... the vultures circle overhead, the snakes slither beneath, and the hyenas are ready to pounce....

--

BTW, I just got an idea.... What if we were to develop a special product line, just for Gaharu members? We provide a handsome discount to everyone who is an active contributor, and even offer exclusive releases, available to members only?

@Taha, what do you think of that?

@Luigi could be the distiller-in-chief....

@JK does all the paperwork – GCMS, CITES, import and export red tape, you name it....

And you (@Adam) can sleep with the pot and condensers....

While I admire the charms of @5MeO's sister (oils delivered) and she turns out to be one of the houris....

And we all enjoy the tunes of @Joyoud's parrot's take on "Ode to Joy" together....

I almost forgot to add that @Oud_Learner can be in charge of the V-vials, pipettors and cryogenic labels

Like I said - just can't make some people happy. haha

**Please do no think I am angry or yelling as I write the below. At this point, I'm just stating facts.

Since you're asking me to clarify - will you please clarify for the forum that you openly and admittedly stated to me that you have set out to blackmail my company? It seems now you are just set on a smear campaign - something Ensar told me you would NOT continue to do. You realize you are tarnishing Ensar's word to me, at this point. He vouched for you, muchacho. Stop.

I have stated what you had asked me to state (after the listing ALREADY got a thumbs up from more than a dozen people I had review it). I further clarified, which STILL does not seem to cut it for you. Taher - there is simply no satiating you. You nitpick to the point of mindlessness.

The reason I state with confidence non-Oud oils are verified - because many of them come from verified sources that I trust. Oud sources are more difficult to trust, as any Vendor here would probably agree to. All the vendors here have spent considerable time and resources finding reliable people to work with. Does that mean we occasionally get a questionable material? Yes, certainly. I've smelled synthetics in oils from every vendor I have sampled from over the years. Does it mean they are somehow liars or cheats? No. It happens. It is bound to. Doesn't mean anyone is being dishonest. Doesn't mean we all don't try our darnedest to provide the best oils to the best of our abilities to our clients. 99% of what we put out I am sure we all feel confident about.

Many of the oils I use are custom-distilled specifically for my company. Sandalwoods, Ouds, Fossilized Amber, Frankincense, among others. Others come from trusted sources like Robertet or LMF. I also work with various smaller, artisan vendors around the world that I work directly with. Sources that their word suffices for me. If I had to go back and GC every single oil I get, it would simply not be feasible.

Even as it stands - the vendors here do not bring in the kind of cash many here seem to think we do. It's pretty hand-to-mouth, at least for me. I don't have a million dollar wood business like one vendor. Nor do I bring in enough to have a team of people working with me or set out globe trotting like some of the other vendors do. There are innumerable expenses involved in this business as it is. If you want there to be more cash available and help all of us vendors fulfill the paperwork you want to see - then I would encourage you to buy more. Help us generate the cash flows necessary. Truly - the cash flow is not what you think it is when compared to the expenses involved in doing the work that it takes to provide the oils and resources that we provide.

Even trusted resources with large supply businesses - like White Lotus - a company we all know and love...even if they state that all the paperwork is simply not feasible, why then do you think it would be feasible for us? I used them as an example for that specific reason - they fiat out state that it isn't feasible, yet everyone here recognizes them as an all around upstanding company.

Are there any business owners in here that can chime in about the disparity between revenues and the expenses involved in generating those revenues?

I am sorry that you feel I am somehow misleading people, Taher. I am absolutely not intentionally misleading anyone. I do my darnedest to state the details of a product. My Sicilian Vanilla Attar, as an example - I state that I employ some Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin in that particular Attar. Others are 100% Natural. I do my best to state these details, and if there is ever a question, people are free to ask (I prefer asking, rather than accusing of some sort of malfeasance, like some are wont to jump to).

Mincing words to death like you are - I do not believe there is anything that anyone can say to satiate your desire to micromanage words. Nor do I feel that there is anything that I can do or say that will stop you from your smear campaign.

And since you said it to me - let's turn the tables. I still have not heard you deny that you have openly and admittedly stated to me that you stated plane as day to me that you have set out to blackmail my company. Will you admit this? I stated what you asked me to state. Are you willing to do the same? We both know that I can post a capture of your own words - your desire to blackmail my company if I am pushed to.

I feel bad for you. Truly. I suffered your innumerable emails asking for every single detail I could provide. You sampled the oil. You loved the Cambodi 85 Ghaliyah. You asked specifically for the Oud that I used in it. I provided every iota of data I had, and it still wasn't good enough for you - and then you were somehow convinced that I was undertaking some conspiracy to lie to you, which just isn't the case - at which point you stated that you were hellbent on blackmailing me.

Please stop, Taher. I further clarified on the listing. Stop trying to make it seem like all of my oils are now suspect, which they are not. If you continue to push this - I will press for @Luigi to take your continued actions as libel. I have already provided to him your written admission to your desire to blackmail my company, as well as the full conversation I had with the Ouddict Admins about the absolutely bizarre claims you and your minions are trying to smear me with over there.

I repeat - stop the insanity. For all of us. Please.

I had intended to stop as keisro requested, but JK wanted my admission.

Just for the record, there was no ‘desire’ to blackmail. All I did in my initial post was inform people that the ghaliyah contains synthetic oud. You could have just changed the details on the listing or remove it altogether (as I stipulated privately as part of my conditions), this would not have happened.

Since you are committed to ‘stating the facts’, here are the facts for everyone to read and judge. Your facts seem to be sandwiched between a lot of babble and excuses.

1. I spent over $1500 on two bottles of ‘pure’ oud recommended by JK. BOTH of which turned out to be completely synthetic based on reliable feedback.
2. I messaged JK, politely informing him that I received this feedback and that I would want to get a refund because I would obviously not spend that kind of money on synthetic oils, I told him I was fully willing to get the oils Gcd in case he needed more objective confirmation of the feedback I received. Based on the noses which judged the oils, he realised testing was not necessary.
3. I was shocked when he refused outright, saying he had a refund policy and that when he says 100% pure oud, no synthetics or adulterants, what he really means is that He did not add anything to the oil.
4. I obviously got annoyed at this, I told him that unless he return my money and remove the listings (to prevent others from wasting money on fake oud) I would get the oils GCd and publish the findings along with my story to expose him.
5. He got scared and after much negotiation finally returned my money and I sent the oils back. 3-4 months later, He had still not removed/modified the listing of the ghaliyah which contained the synthetic cambodi. Thus I felt it right to inform the public that this oil is not pure or authentic as it is advertised to be.

I got my money back, what about all the others who bought bottles of your Cambodi 1985, Yunnan cha or Ghaliyah while you knew they were dodgy. Were there refunds to others or at least a recall of the products seeing as feedback dictated that they were no longer products you rest your reputation upon.

If anyone would like full documentation of the discussion, unedited and without picking and choosing particular parts of the conversation please let me know…I will be happy to provide access to it.

I have done my part, he refuses to provide proper transparency on the listing or remove it. More people will likely buy it trusting that even though (as with all other vendors products) there is no GC, he has some capacity to distinguish pure from synthetic oud, which is unfortunately not the case. Whoever still wants to sympathise with him…be my guest.

I like the idea of that idea!
And as far as the comments that came after that, just make @PEARL the guy who keeps all the money(I'd make sure to wet you beak though).

You know, I personally feel demeaned by being involved in this BS, but I just cannot stand injustice and standby while anyone's business is threatened unfairly. And that is coming from someone who has no relationship with any vendor, just an enthusiast like most here.
There is absolutely no reason for your post, none in the sphere or rational discussion. We are now in the pathologic realm. If you were in the states, and I assume you are not, and this was my business you were attacking, my lawyers would sue you for slander, not to mention the written proof (which I have already seen) of blackmail.

I am not going to respond to any of your points because they are not worth it. I again ask that you, please, for the love of God, stop. Because I have enjoyed this forum and learned so much from the people here, I am going to do what I can to preserve the harmonious environment here.

Phil