SOTD

[Taha]

Lets leave the tricks and accusations to their people. Here no one doubts your sincerity Taha. Please feel free to speak your mind. No need to defend yourself! We see and feel your difficulties.

Thanks for the kind words Kruger. I just hope skepticism doesn't hold people back from being open and inquisitive, for their own sake. Its fun (and of course educational) to be able to test different scents and know how and why they smell the way they do. I had Adam over at my place a couple days ago and I stained his arms with a bunch of oils and shared with him how and why each one smelled the way it did even when some of them were extracted from the very same wood yet smelled nothing like the other.

I too tried a bunch of his oils, and I think the 'SOTD' for both of us would have been something like 15 different oils.
Special mention goes to his Lee Lawadee. Extremely beautiful oil that! And surprisingly it lasted much longer than most of the other oils (except maybe Si Lani). Borneo Fera was very neat too, a real shape shifter. I questioned his description when I first applied it, but then *smack* *smack* I kept getting hit with wafts of completely different scent notes as it evolved on my skin. Very 'warm' Borneo oil just like Adam suggested on the website, very unusual, and kept making me go back to it so I wouldn't miss anything.

My evening SOTD is Ajmal's Dahn Al Oud Watani. This is one of my favorite Indian ouds, genuine Imphali Manipuri Hindustani. I've been chasing wild Imphal agarwood (with no success yet) for the past 7 or so years. I'm always told its long gone. But who knows... maybe a lone tree is standing there, guarded and hidden from sight by massive palm trees, with my name on it.
For those who haven't smelled a genuine Indian oud from Imphal before, its very different from other Indian ouds. It smells like a cross between west coast peninsular Malaysian (Kejalasan, Manaka Jinkoh) and northern Borneo oud (Borneo Adventure 1, Sabah Select). Crazy right.

 

[5MeO]

I'd like to know if "Al Shareef II" (ASO) is a fermented oil? It is a Malaysian oil, though the profile has that twangy musky type note that Yunnan 03 and Chinese Exclusive have.. I don't think he posts over here - I might should go ask on Ouddict forum..

 

[Ensar Oud]

I've been chasing wild Imphal agarwood (with no success yet) for the past 7 or so years. I'm always told its long gone. But who knows... maybe a lone tree is standing there, guarded and hidden from sight by massive palm trees, with my name on it.
For those who haven't smelled a genuine Indian oud from Imphal before, its very different from other Indian ouds. It smells like a cross between west coast peninsular Malaysian (Kejalasan, Manaka Jinkoh) and northern Borneo oud (Borneo Adventure 1, Sabah Select). Crazy right.

Oud Mostafa No 1, Oud Sulaiman LTD (2007 ed), Oud Shuayb & Royal Imphal were all wild Imphali distillations.... Would be curious to check out the Watani and see if it bears any resemblance to any of them. None of them smell Malaysian or Bornean to me... with the possible exception of Shuayb, which 'could' be interpreted to possess a dark chocolaty note vaguely reminiscent of Malaysian oil. There was one batch we did after Sulaiman LTD which smelled so Borneo-like, I got into a debate with the distiller and accused him of mixing Borneo wood into the stills. I was an ultra orthodox Hindi freak back in those days, so I ended up rejecting the oil, and I don't know which lucky Shaykh from the Khaleej is now sitting on a few tolas of incredible Imphali golden sunshine cheese funk due to my foolishness....

 

[Ensar Oud]

I'd like to know if "Al Shareef II" (ASO) is a fermented oil? It is a Malaysian oil, though the profile has that twangy musky type note that Yunnan 03 and Chinese Exclusive have..

Not only is it fermented, I'd say it's no less than a 4 month soak, possibly going even up to six months.

Funny you brought this up right after the talk about naturally funky wood and the funk that's due to fermentation. There's a strange correlation between Chinese sinensis and Thai crassna wood, where one week of soaking the former is equal to a month's soak for the latter. Soak a Hainan for a month, and you'd need to soak a Trat for four months to get an approximate aroma. The funk is somewhat similar, and can be curiously mimicked if you soak the Thai stock long enough. Only a well trained nose can pick up the nuances that distinguish true sinensis from cultivated crassna stock. I have an experimental batch that was done this way, and I'll send you a sample of it so you can see for yourself.

I'm not saying Al Shareef II is a Thai crassna, I just have a hard time identifying it as Malaysian wood, which would develop a much more 'muddy' brown chocolaty kind of funk if soaked for this long. Then again, it is possible that Thai saplings were imported into Malaysia and grown there.

Another possibility is that it is a mix between a heavily fermented Thai and a moderately fermented Malaysian, which accounts for the opening notes... 5-10 minutes in though, it's 100% Thai to my nose.

And before anybody starts shooting... "the views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the original vendor."

 

[Taherg]

Oud Mostafa No 1, Oud Sulaiman LTD (2007 ed), Oud Shuayb & Royal Imphal were all wild Imphali distillations.... Would be curious to check out the Watani and see if it bears any resemblance to any of them. None of them smell Malaysian or Bornean to me... with the possible exception of Shuayb, which 'could' be interpreted to possess a dark chocolaty note vaguely reminiscent of Malaysian oil. There was one batch we did after Sulaiman LTD which smelled so Borneo-like, I got into a debate with the distiller and accused him of mixing Borneo wood into the stills. I was an ultra orthodox Hindi freak back in those days, so I ended up rejecting the oil, and I don't know which lucky Shaykh from the Khaleej is now sitting on a few tolas of incredible Imphali golden sunshine cheese funk due to my foolishness....

@Ensar,
I brought the Watani with me when we met...remember you tried that one and said it is the only one you smelled from Ajmal that was quite well done (and pure). Very similar sentiments to Taha lol. That being said, you shared my thoughts initially because I too thought it had a very malay (almost a berkilau) type of profile.

 

[jensz]

Hi everyone, have been lurking for a while and it's time to make a first post.
Thanks, @Taha, for the really helpful discussion of Sinensis animalics -- how they're intrinsic to the wood and distinct from the barn caused by fermentation. Very helpful to know! The animalic Sinensis fragrances are different from the fermented barn, but speaking for myself, I initially lumped all the animal oud aromas together as *mostly* the result of fermentation. Am so thrilled to know that that is not the case . . . not because there would be anything "wrong" if they did come from the same source but that Sinensis animalics have a completely different origin just inspires wonder. That musky aroma from, say, Yunnan 2003, is one of the most compelling scents. I still love my barny Hindis, but to take my brain to a completely different dimension, the Sinensis is the way to go. Glad to know where that aroma comes from! THANKS!

 

[Oudamberlove]

Welcome jensz!

@Ensar
I also keep thinking that there's crassna in ASII, and in Khulood. But Al Shareef somehow coaxed those notes from the wood he used to distill them.
I was also inquisitive of Yunnan 2003 at first, could this be agarwood that was soaked for a while then mixed into some Frankincense and Myrrh oil? However, I assert that Y'03 is one of the cleanest distills with notes so crisp and defined, devoid of stray notes to muddy or taint the pallet.

I must say that TW Royale is superb! And to think that it has already undergone some aging, so it will stay the beautiful perfume that it is. Try aging any young Malaysian oil for a decade, and the chances that it will evolve like TWR is slim and none.

I don't think that it is foolishness that lost you the Imphali golden sunshine cheese funk, you were just being inquisitive.

I wonder if the Ajmal Dahn Al Oudh Hindi that I got from Zahras contains Imphali wood?

 

[Taha]

Oud Mostafa No 1, Oud Sulaiman LTD (2007 ed), Oud Shuayb & Royal Imphal were all wild Imphali distillations.... Would be curious to check out the Watani and see if it bears any resemblance to any of them. None of them smell Malaysian or Bornean to me... with the possible exception of Shuayb, which 'could' be interpreted to possess a dark chocolaty note vaguely reminiscent of Malaysian oil. There was one batch we did after Sulaiman LTD which smelled so Borneo-like, I got into a debate with the distiller and accused him of mixing Borneo wood into the stills. I was an ultra orthodox Hindi freak back in those days, so I ended up rejecting the oil, and I don't know which lucky Shaykh from the Khaleej is now sitting on a few tolas of incredible Imphali golden sunshine cheese funk due to my foolishness....

Bah, looks like you beat me to it (yet again).
I hope the golden sunshine oil wasn't from the tree with my name on it that was guarded by the giant palms.

The 3 Imphals that I have/had, by the way, weren't the funky type (except one from Sultan Qaboos's collection which does have some, but smells like a slightly fermented Kalbar oil). Knowing how dramatically the aroma can change from things like soaking and temperature curves, I'm wondering if it was the style of distillation that camouflaged the Malaccensis-like facets in your above-mentioned oils.
By the way, there are of course plenty of very old shops in Saudi Arabia (well, ME in general), some with very very old batches of oils acquired by the grandpas of the current shop owners. I distinctly remember smelling one Imphali oud at a ME oud shop years ago.

@jensz, nice to see you!
Yes, animalics are an intriguing facet of agarwood. I too find 'intrinsic animalics' (seems this has become the acceptable term for it now!) to be extremely captivating. In fact, I often find myself reaching for those oils more than clean or barny ones. Maybe our reptilian brains aren't defunct quite yet after all? If that's the case, its a bit unsettling that we humans find the scent of animal pheromones so alluring.

@Oudamberlove, I just applied some Ajmal D/O on to check. This to me smells more like a Haflong oud, but considering the relative vicinity to Imphal I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of trees migrated to and fro between these two regions. D/O does certainly have some bright elements (peach and light citrus) which can be common among Haflong as well as Manipur/Imphal ouds.

@Taherg, did you show Ensar Ajmal's D/O? I don't get any hives, rashes or sinus swelling from this oil, nor detect any stretching or spiking in the scent profile. I'd put my money on this oil being a pure.

So....! Looks like the SOTM (morning) for me is D/O.
Ketsani is gonna have to wait.

 

[bhanny]

Hi everyone, have been lurking for a while and it's time to make a first post.
Thanks, @Taha, for the really helpful discussion of Sinensis animalics -- how they're intrinsic to the wood and distinct from the barn caused by fermentation. Very helpful to know! The animalic Sinensis fragrances are different from the fermented barn, but speaking for myself, I initially lumped all the animal oud aromas together as *mostly* the result of fermentation. Am so thrilled to know that that is not the case . . . not because there would be anything "wrong" if they did come from the same source but that Sinensis animalics have a completely different origin just inspires wonder. That musky aroma from, say, Yunnan 2003, is one of the most compelling scents. I still love my barny Hindis, but to take my brain to a completely different dimension, the Sinensis is the way to go. Glad to know where that aroma comes from! THANKS!

Welcome jensz! You really just perfectly summarized my exact thoughts and experiences, in a much more eloquent way than I could ever have. But exactly the same.

 

[kesiro]

Hi everyone, have been lurking for a while and it's time to make a first post.
Thanks, @Taha, for the really helpful discussion of Sinensis animalics -- how they're intrinsic to the wood and distinct from the barn caused by fermentation. Very helpful to know! The animalic Sinensis fragrances are different from the fermented barn, but speaking for myself, I initially lumped all the animal oud aromas together as *mostly* the result of fermentation. Am so thrilled to know that that is not the case . . . not because there would be anything "wrong" if they did come from the same source but that Sinensis animalics have a completely different origin just inspires wonder. That musky aroma from, say, Yunnan 2003, is one of the most compelling scents. I still love my barny Hindis, but to take my brain to a completely different dimension, the Sinensis is the way to go. Glad to know where that aroma comes from! THANKS!

That makes a lot of sense because the animalic scent of some of the Chinese oils is really different to me compared to the clearly fermented notes of, say a typical classic Hindi. As consumers, rather than producers, it is very hard to know whether the specific qualities in question are inherent to the wood or whether they are a production result. It is so awesome to have people here with such a wealth of knowledge to answer such questions.

 

[5MeO]

Welcome jensz!

Ensar - interesting perceptions regarding the ASII oil - I spent more time with it last night and there are clear scent profile differences between it and CE, and even moreso between it an Yunna 03 - Y03 smells unlike any other oil I have - most unusual and perfumey sort of aroma..

While we are on the topic - has anyone here tried Shwe Myitkyina(AA)? Here is what Taha says in his description of it: "The distiller insisted the raw materials were of the standard Aquilaria Malaccensis species native to Myanmar, but my own conviction is that the trees were actually of the rare agarwood species Aquilaria Sinesis."

I find that Shwe Mytikynia has that animalic twangy top note also, in that general family of CE, Y03, ASII..

 

[kesiro]

The swipes of the day are Kinam Rouge and Oud Yusuf, AKA, naughty and nice.

 

[Taherg]

It could just be an initial feeling........ but I just sampled China Sayang and I would probably trade any of my other EO Chinese/Yunnan oils to get a bottle of this.
Lets see how that perspective develops

 

[Ensar Oud]

I also keep thinking that there's crassna in ASII, and in Khulood. But Al Shareef somehow coaxed those notes from the wood he used to distill them.

I was also inquisitive of Yunnan 2003 at first, could this be agarwood that was soaked for a while then mixed into some Frankincense and Myrrh oil? However, I assert that Y'03 is one of the cleanest distills with notes so crisp and defined, devoid of stray notes to muddy or taint the pallet.

I wonder if the Ajmal Dahn Al Oudh Hindi that I got from Zahras contains Imphali wood?

I admire your giving us all the benefit of the doubt, Curt! That's the way it should be!

The thing is, when you handle these things with your hands and have got years of sensory data that point to something that's clear as day to you.... It's a tough one... and that's why I put that disclaimer there at the end.... My experience leaves me no room for doubt that the oil is a crassna run that was soaked 4-6 months in the blue plastic barrels commonly used in Thailand. When you ferment something for that long in a plastic drum, something from the make-up of the barrel interacts with the fermentation process that's taking place, lending an unmistakable plastic note to the profile. Again, observations learned through firsthand experience. This note is a second confirmation to me that the wood was soaked for quite a long time. As for it being Malaysian or Thai.... To me it remains Thai the way a bowl of tom yum would!

Ultimately, my observations have no bearing on the 'reality' of the oil. They remain my private conclusions derived from hard sensory data that is relevant to me.

I had a friendly debate about a similar situation with @Taherg about Taha's recent Laotians. Taher said the oils were unsoaked, and he couldn't detect any soaking in them. I said, to me they're as clearly soaked as the fact that I'm sitting here talking to you. He asked Taha on this thread whether they were fermented or not, and Taha confirmed that they were not fermented. Regardless of what Taha said – and I don't doubt his integrity – my sensory data point to a soaked batch of wood. I am as certain of it as I am that any one of my own soaked oils was soaked. It's like showing a patch of skin to a dermatologist and saying, 'There's no eczema there' – Is he going to trust you, or his own eyes?

Does that mean that Taha is lying? Of course not. Maybe the wood was kept in the water until it sank inside the pot so they could get the correct amount of water in. Maybe they did a brief soak without telling him, thinking that 'no soak' means some sort of soak, so long as it's not six months.... Maybe the wood was kept in extremely humid conditions, under heavy cellophane causing it to be in a protracted 'semi-soaked' state. The possibilities are numerous.

The bottom line is, as a producer you have your own take on what is put in front of you, and whatever the original vendor says is of 'secondary' importance. Your sensory data is your own, and you're going to trust your nose and experience before anyone else's. As the scholars of classical Islam used to say in such scenarios: 'I am right, with the possibility that I could be wrong – and my colleague is wrong, with the possibility that he could be right.'

 

[Ensar Oud]

@Ensar,I brought the Watani with me when we met...remember you tried that one and said it is the only one you smelled from Ajmal that was quite well done (and pure). Very similar sentiments to Taha lol. That being said, you shared my thoughts initially because I too thought it had a very malay (almost a berkilau) type of profile.

Gotcha! So that's the one!.... Very interesting oil indeed. I didn't get any Indian notes from it at all. Clearly Malaysian profile with minimal funk. But then again, you never know....

For those who haven't smelled a genuine Indian oud from Imphal before, its very different from other Indian ouds. It smells like a cross between west coast peninsular Malaysian (Kejalasan, Manaka Jinkoh) and northern Borneo oud (Borneo Adventure 1, Sabah Select).

@Taha, did you encounter many Imphalis that possessed those notes, or was it just the Watani that led to this characterization? I'm really surprised to hear it as none of mine possessed those particular notes....

 

[Taha]

Gotcha! So that's the one!.... Very interesting oil indeed. I didn't get any Indian notes from it at all. Clearly Malaysian profile with minimal funk. But then again, you never know....

@Taha, did you encounter many Imphalis that possessed those notes, or was it just the Watani that led to this characterization? I'm really surprised to hear it as none of mine possessed those particular notes....

Yep, they all did, and they're all from *VERY* different sources. There's Ajmal's, there's one that was gifted to me by one of my distillers (a very ancient brew), one I bought from India about 8 or 9 years ago (I forgot to mention this one before), the one at the ME shop, and Sultan Qaboos's oil, and they all have that Malaysian quality. That's a total of 5, all from very different sources.
My guess is that there must have been a population of trees that migrated from down south up to India, and landed in Imphal, and then over time that population got wiped out. In the jungle, I have seen such clustering of identical-species trees, and especially species like Hirta (that naturally grow in clusters - you can practically draw a migration line on a map).
I've never seen an Imphali tree of this type/species before, so this is just my guess. Any way, I have 2 of those still at home and will show them to you when you visit.

FYI @all, Ensar is absolutely correct: the wood for all 3 batches of Lao oils was indeed soaked. Sorry if there was any confusion regarding this. I've mentioned a few times before that I always soak all wood for distillation regardless of the style (clean, animalic etc).
But just like Berkilau, Royal Chen Xiang, Royal Pursat (which were all soaked for about thrice the duration btw, and yet are all 'clean' brews), the wood was only soaked and not fermented or rotted.
I'll tie this in with the other topic (condensers) and discuss a bit in more detail in the other thread...

 

[Oudamberlove]

The nose knows

 

[bhanny]

FYI @all, Ensar is absolutely correct: the wood for all 3 batches of Lao oils was indeed soaked. Sorry if there was any confusion regarding this. I've mentioned a few times before that I always soak all wood for distillation regardless of the style (clean, animalic etc).
But just like Berkilau, Royal Chen Xiang, Royal Pursat (which were all soaked for about thrice the duration btw, and yet are all 'clean' brews), the wood was only soaked and not fermented or rotted.
I'll tie this in with the other topic (condensers) and discuss a bit in more detail in the other thread...

Thanks Taha for clarifying. For a long time, until it was explained to me otherwise, assumed any soaking equalled fermenting/barn, etc.

 

[bhanny]

Not only is it fermented, I'd say it's no less than a 4 month soak, possibly going even up to six months.

Funny you brought this up right after the talk about naturally funky wood and the funk that's due to fermentation. There's a strange correlation between Chinese sinensis and Thai crassna wood, where one week of soaking the former is equal to a month's soak for the latter. Soak a Hainan for a month, and you'd need to soak a Trat for four months to get an approximate aroma. The funk is somewhat similar, and can be curiously mimicked if you soak the Thai stock long enough. Only a well trained nose can pick up the nuances that distinguish true sinensis from cultivated crassna stock. I have an experimental batch that was done this way, and I'll send you a sample of it so you can see for yourself.

I'm not saying Al Shareef II is a Thai crassna, I just have a hard time identifying it as Malaysian wood, which would develop a much more 'muddy' brown chocolaty kind of funk if soaked for this long. Then again, it is possible that Thai saplings were imported into Malaysia and grown there.

Another possibility is that it is a mix between a heavily fermented Thai and a moderately fermented Malaysian, which accounts for the opening notes... 5-10 minutes in though, it's 100% Thai to my nose.

And before anybody starts shooting... "the views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the original vendor."

Very interesting Ensar, thanks for clarifying the Thai/Chinese correlation. And ASOII, thank you for your insight and opinion. It is different from any Malaysian I've ever smelled and I am clearly not personally questioning or doubting Al Shareef given my relative inexperience.

 

[Taha]

Thanks Taha for clarifying. For a long time, until it was explained to me otherwise, assumed any soaking equalled fermenting/barn, etc.

I don't blame you, you're very right to have assumed this, because this has always been the case.

Purely by accident I discovered that it doesn't have to be the case. I've discussed the theory behind it with Adam and Muhammad Taftazani (and his partner), and its very fascinating to see the sorts of adaptations they've come up with. I don't know if they have found it to be useful or if its just a novel idea (imagine... being able to soak wood for 3 MONTHS with not even a remote whiff of barn).
To me, soaking is a means to an end. Soaking in and of itself is pointless. But soaking, to loosen up the scent compounds and make them 'malleable' so you can shape them the way you want, now that is a beautiful thing. Its a bit like trying to make a painting with dry pigment (powder) vs a fluid paste (paint). The fluid paste will allow you to make a beautiful painting. But not the fluidity in and of itself. You have to have some artistic prowess as a prerequisite, to make a painting that would provoke a gasp of wonder in the beholder.

Okay, so I couldn't resist. My SOTN is an oil I just had to go and apply a bit of after typing up the message.
This was extracted from a batch of wood that was soaked for SO long that it practically ended up looking like Quaker grits. You see, the wood for this oil was from a water-catchment zone and so burning the wood displays some incredibly spicy notes due to the soil composition. To make the salient character of the wood really pop in the oil, I decided the wood should get a looooong quenching final quaff of the local ground water.. hence the grits-like consistency of the raw material. Guess what: not even the faintest hint of barn in the oil. And mission accomplished: its the spiciest oud I've smelled in my life.
And I just remembered - you got a sample of Kalbar No.1, that was also soaked (but in different type of water, different environment, different style) until it became a porridge-like consistency. I'm sure you'll agree there's no barn in it, and I don't know if I sent you a chip from the raw material, but if I did you'll see (I hope!) that I captured the three salient features of the ambient-aroma wood quite accurately (honey, vanilla, and white flowers). And you guessed it... the soak was designed specifically make these notes pop.

So the moral of the story is that soaking in and of itself is just a tool. Like a hammer. A hammer isn't "good" or "bad". It depends what you intend to do with it.